[BrewBama]

...
Beer taste should still be your guide ...

+1


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[erockrph]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

I often use Epsom salts when I want to boost SO4 without adding Ca.

And I use Kosher salt for adding Cl without adding Ca.

[denny]

Hopefully Martin chimes in on this, but I think I recall him mentioning in the past that the 50ppm minimum is recommended for ales to flocculate as expected, but with lagers you may even be able to get away with less.

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I recall the same.

My concern would be how to get my RO water boosted with needed Cl and SO4 without hitting around 50 ppm of Ca, since I use CaCl2 and CaSO4 as the salts...just thinking out loud, as I haven't run anything through a brewing calculator.  I tend to shoot for 50 ppm Ca for my lighter lagers and ales, both.

I often use Epsom salts when I want to boost SO4 without adding Ca.

And I use Kosher salt for adding Cl without adding Ca.

That'll work as long as you pay attention to the Na.

[BrewBama]

Like in cooking, salt enhances flavors so I can see how a little NaCl could be added in the kettle, keg, or glass for flavor. I recall old timers adding salt to their beers.


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[denny]

Like in cooking, salt enhances flavors so I can see how a little NaCl could be added in the kettle, keg, or glass for flavor. I recall old timers adding salt to their beers.


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Yeah, my dad always did. It decarbed the beer and made it sweeter.

[erockrph]

Like in cooking, salt enhances flavors so I can see how a little NaCl could be added in the kettle, keg, or glass for flavor. I recall old timers adding salt to their beers.


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I generally shoot for 40-50ppm of sodium in my beers, which gets me to about 70-80 ppm of chloride when added to my well water. I've never tasted salt, but I do feel like it brings out the malt flavor a bit (althought I fully admit that this might be confirmation bias). It sort of like if you've ever forgotten the salt in a loaf of bread. Bread with the proper amount of salt doesn't taste salty, but without any salt it just seems like something is missing.

[BrewBama]

I agree. I made yeast rolls once and forgot the salt. They definitely lacked taste.

[BrewBama]

Found it (finally). Kai said the recommended range accounts for the loss: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=14970.0

Seems the loss is somewhere between 28-40% but Martin says it’s too fuzzy to accurately predict.

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Follow up question(s): given that there is some loss of Ca in the MLT due to certain reactions taking place, does it stand to reason that all the Chloride and/or Sulfate also doesn’t make it to the kettle either?  If that is correct, how much loss is expected or is it too difficult to determine as well? 

Then, if there is loss in the MLT, I can only imagine what a 60 min boil does to create more losses. ...or what happens in the fermenter.

IOW, we’re targeting a mineral profile based on X ppm at the beginning of the process that doesn’t make it to the end and as a result may have little to no flavor impact.

I have more questions than answers at this point.


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[Silver_Is_Money]

On various of the UK brewing forums they generally advise 100 to 150 ppm calcium in the mash, and they often outright laugh at Americans who think 40-50 ppm is sufficient.

[erockrph]

On various of the UK brewing forums they generally advise 100 to 150 ppm calcium in the mash, and they often outright laugh at Americans who think 40-50 ppm is sufficient.

Interesting. Do you know what their reasoning is?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Interesting. Do you know what their reasoning is?

Not really, other than a general contention that their most common beer styles simply demand it if one is ever going to get them right.

[BrewBama]

I’ve read that if they don’t jack up the Calcium plus whatever baggage it brings in the mash (Chloride and/or Sulfate), then they don’t get the flavor the Chloride and Sulfate bring to the beer.

My hypothesis is they jack it up because only a portion of any of it makes it out of the mash tun but I don’t have any evidence.

Seems to make more sense to address the mash in the mash and address flavor later down the line.  Salts will have more impact the later they’re used so less would be required for the same results.


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[Megary]

Reading an old CB&B magazine, Feb-Mar 2016, on IPA’s...

There’s a recipe in there (p63) for Block15’s House IPA.  The brewer’s notes are “We add Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulfate to the mash to achieve 125ppm calcium, 180ppm sulfate and 85ppm chloride.  Adjust your water accordingly.”

At least some American brewer, at one time, in a particular beer, was using a fair amount of calcium in the mash.  It’s unlikely this is a unique example.

I’m not familiar with this beer, probably never having made it across the country.  Anyone think this tastes minerally??

[denny]

Reading an old CB&B magazine, Feb-Mar 2016, on IPA’s...

There’s a recipe in there (p63) for Block15’s House IPA.  The brewer’s notes are “We add Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulfate to the mash to achieve 125ppm calcium, 180ppm sulfate and 85ppm chloride.  Adjust your water accordingly.”

At least some American brewer, at one time, in a particular beer, was using a fair amount of calcium in the mash.  It’s unlikely this is a unique example.

I’m not familiar with this beer, probably never having made it across the country.  Anyone think this tastes minerally??

I've had itba number of times.  It hasmso much hop character that I dont think you could taste minerals.  Whhat I get drom Martin's posts isn that its not as much about flavor as yeast performance.

[erockrph]

Reading an old CB&B magazine, Feb-Mar 2016, on IPA’s...

There’s a recipe in there (p63) for Block15’s House IPA.  The brewer’s notes are “We add Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulfate to the mash to achieve 125ppm calcium, 180ppm sulfate and 85ppm chloride.  Adjust your water accordingly.”

At least some American brewer, at one time, in a particular beer, was using a fair amount of calcium in the mash.  It’s unlikely this is a unique example.

I’m not familiar with this beer, probably never having made it across the country.  Anyone think this tastes minerally??

That doesn't seem outrageously high to me. I wouldn't expect it to taste particularly minerally based on my experience. Somewhere around 300-400ppm of sulfate + chloride is where I start to notice it. And even then it's not necessarily a bad thing if it fits the style.

A lot of my beers end up with a relatively low level of calcium,  but it's not because I'm trying to avoid it so much as I'm targeting other ions. I use relatively soft water for a lot of my beers, so my calcium ends up in the 60's to 80's ppm. I haven't noticed any deleterious effects because of it so far.

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