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Author Topic: Flameout pH adjustment...  (Read 12826 times)

Offline goose

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2021, 01:16:03 pm »
Thanks, Matt.  I thought that might be the case but wasn't 100% sure.

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Offline Richard

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2021, 01:17:56 pm »
I took an idea from Denny for cooling pH samples. I have a metal cup that I put in the freezer at the start of brew day. I put my mash sample in the cold up, then swirl the cup in a bath of ice water until the sample temp is 68. It only takes a minute regardless of ambient temperature.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2021, 02:01:14 pm »
I took an idea from Denny for cooling pH samples. I have a metal cup that I put in the freezer at the start of brew day. I put my mash sample in the cold up, then swirl the cup in a bath of ice water until the sample temp is 68. It only takes a minute regardless of ambient temperature.
I do this too.  All hail Denny. 
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2021, 03:06:47 pm »
Goose - the offset is the measurement @ mash temperature (which varies if you step mash or decoct) vs pH at room temp (really 68 f for most meters). My garage in summer is never under 90 f - but I trust my device’s ATC and device chart offset for temp to determine my “room temp” mash pH.

That is not what ATC does.  ATC does not correct pH, it corrects the slope of the units internal voltage potential equation such that the pH you read at a given temperature (within it's range) is the real pH, but it does not correct pH's such that a pH taken at one temperature is the same as a pH taken at a different temperature.  Without ATC you must calibrate at the temperature of the reading whereby to get a correct reading at any temperature which differs from your calibration temperature, but ATC allows for some degree of temperature variance between the calibrant and the sample.

The thing that is hard to understand is that if you read (say) 5.50 pH at 90 F., and then you read (say) 5.56 pH at 68 F. (for the very same sample) both are de-Facto correct pH's (thanks to ATC) because more H+ (acid) ions are dissociated at 90 degrees than at 68 degrees (which is to say that dissociation pKa and Ka values vary with temperature, and is also to say that hot liquids are inherently more acidic than cold liquids).

What I believe that you are hoping for (along with millions of others) is that at both 90 degrees F. and 68 degrees F. the presence of ATC will force the display to read 5.56 pH for the same sample.  That would be forcing the pH meter to lie.  They are made to not lie.  And ATC improves their ability to not lie, as opposed to their ability to lie to your satisfaction.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 03:18:38 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline mchrispen

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Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2021, 04:14:11 pm »
What is hard to understand is that a few of us are not idiots. You did not properly read my post or I was not clear. Let’s assume the latter. I apologize.

ATC, per my Anton Parr provider, clearly states that ATC provides sensor correction based on temperature deviation from a 20C baseline. The further from that baseline, the less ATC can offset accurately. My “room temp” with chilled sample generally falls under 70F - and well within their claimed accuracy framework of 20c +~ 2C. This will vary by vendor and specific product solution.

The term “Room Temp” is as garbage as “Mash Temp” - both mean nothing as a standard.

I made no claim of pH correction over wide ranging temperatures. Any idiot that can read a manual knows this is a non-issue. AP also makes sensors accurate between 60-80C for pH and support the idea of a non-linear response of pH as those temps transition. Higher temps = higher potential energy = statistically higher H+ measures.

I work in the industry. I appreciate specificity, but not deprecation.

Please stop lecturing. Give us a bit of credit.


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« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 04:27:30 pm by mchrispen »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #125 on: August 14, 2021, 04:23:57 pm »
The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are ALL idiots.
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Offline mchrispen

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #126 on: August 14, 2021, 04:24:24 pm »
Word.


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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #127 on: August 14, 2021, 07:23:04 pm »
I do remember talking with someone who was also having an issue with their version of BNW.  He said that at some point no matter how much acid he added, he couldn't get his target pH to drop below 5.5.  He started adding absurd amounts.  He mentioned it to me and I was able to get the sheet to do it for me as well except my figure was 5.4. 

If the pH result doesn't change as you vary ingredients or additions, then the program is stuck or hasn't been set up properly. 
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2021, 05:07:27 pm »
Yikes! I know this forum has a reputation for being harsh, but if someone descents from home brewing orthodoxy, they get pummeled. Not good. Ideas need to be shared and expressed for the good of us all. I don’t believe silver-is-money meant any insult.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2021, 05:40:25 pm »
Yikes! I know this forum has a reputation for being harsh, but if someone descents from home brewing orthodoxy, they get pummeled. Not good. Ideas need to be shared and expressed for the good of us all. I don’t believe silver-is-money meant any insult.

Of course not.  My aim is to educate.  And to freely and openly offer up as much as I can before I exit this earth of the once hidden math behind many of the home brewing hobbies pH related problems, issues, queries, dilemmas, mysteries, and software related internals that have often been kept generally hidden behind the scenes from general public knowledge, occasionally whereby to profit, leaving aside the fact that much to most of it is and has for decades been publicly available all along if one only knows where to look for it.  My motif in doing this is (again) to educate, and do so freely, openly, and without profit. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 05:42:15 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2021, 05:43:02 pm »
I would also mention that we're not all on the same level.  I freely admit that a lot of the technical content here is beyond me.  What might seem obvious to some might be enlightening to others.  Let's not try to squelch information because we think that everyone already knows it. 
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Offline mchrispen

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #131 on: August 16, 2021, 03:21:16 pm »
I owe @Silver and the readers an apology. I usually, and should here, walked away. My response was acerbic and not something to be proud.

I have been blogging about fairly complex brewing topics for nearly 15 years, and every post gets a bunch of responses that range from “you are destroying home brewing” to “you’re a dumb-a$$” on reasonably well researched posts. For a blog with no sponsors or ads, I thought I developed substantially thick skin. Prolly not. I’m a believer that delivering information needs a considered voice, and I’m sick of (and seemingly hyper-sensitive) what I perceive as condescending.

Silver’s points are accurate and important to brewers. It would be nice if we can put a blog post out there that simply puts this issue (pH at room temp) to rest… it seems to re-emerge every few years. Martin? You want in?

Anyone can DM he here or at mchrispen/@/gmail.com or matt/@/accidentalis.com.


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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #132 on: August 16, 2021, 04:26:08 pm »
I dunno if Martin agrees with us. Which, if true, is okay. We are all entitled to our own opinions.  I for one enjoy reviewing dissenting opinions. This is how we learn and form our own.
Dave

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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2021, 04:56:19 pm »
... what I perceive as condescending ...
Considering the size of this place, it's pretty friendly, generally.  I have run across some posters who seem to be a little condescending but online personalities can often be that way.  The fact that you chose to post an apology says all kinds of good things about you. 
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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2021, 05:23:29 pm »
… The fact that you chose to post an apology says all kinds of good things about you.





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