Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Flameout pH adjustment...  (Read 12295 times)

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27177
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2021, 08:26:50 am »
I dunno if Martin agrees with us. Which, if true, is okay. We are all entitled to our own opinions.  I for one enjoy reviewing dissenting opinions. This is how we learn and form our own.

As has often been said, you're entitled to your own opinion .  But not your own facts.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2909
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2021, 08:33:24 am »
I am a proponent of citing 'room-temperature' pH as a better option since high temperature is rough on a pH probe.  I'm just trying to help brewers get more life out of their finite-longevity pH probe.  But the bottom line will always be: assess wort pH and use it to assess what pH helps you to make the better beer.  If you've found that a mashing temperature pH of 5.1 produces great beer for you and you know how to make that happen, then its OK by me.  I just happen to be a person that likes for equipment to last and I make my judgements and adjustments based on my cooled wort samples. 

And with respect to if old texts and articles referred to mashing- or room-temperature pH measurement, I don't know for sure.  But I've found through my own observations and results that targeting a room-temperature pH in the 5.2 to 5.6 range tends to result in decent beers (paler beers tend to be better in the lower end of the range and darker beers at the upper end). 
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4900
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2021, 08:53:21 am »
Thanks, Martin:

Any thoughts on further kettle adjustment of pH at flameout?  I tried it for the first time last weekend (lactic acid addition at flameout) and am awaiting the tasting results on a Helles after it is done and lagered a bit. 
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4737
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2021, 09:10:35 am »
I dunno if Martin agrees with us. Which, if true, is okay. We are all entitled to our own opinions.  I for one enjoy reviewing dissenting opinions. This is how we learn and form our own.

As has often been said, you're entitled to your own opinion .  But not your own facts.

That would be fine, if everyone could agree on the facts.  But they don't, and maybe never will.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2909
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #139 on: August 17, 2021, 09:18:59 am »
Any thoughts on further kettle adjustment of pH at flameout? 

I'm not sure if I mentioned it previously, but I find that taking the difference in acid dose for the MASH needed to change the mash pH from your original mashing pH to X units lower is how to do it.  Review the acid dose originally used in Bru'n Water to produce the mashing pH and then start bumping up the acid dose to produce a predicted mashing pH of X units lower.  Add the difference in the calculated mashing water acid addition between the original and lowered pH cases to the kettle.  By only looking at the calculated acid addition difference based on the mashing water volume, you reduce the possibility that you'll overdose the kettle with acid and undershoot your pH target.  It's easier to add more than take out acid.

Ignore the contributions of the sparging water acid dose since it should be a minimal contributor to kettle pH since the Bru'n Water recommendations have you neutralizing sparging water alkalinity to nearly zero. 

PS: the buffering of kettle wort seems to be similar to mashing wort.  That's why Bru'n Water works for this kettle pH adjustment.  The buffering of beer is quite different from wort.  You can't use Bru'n Water to figure out how much acid to add to drop the pH of a finished beer.  (Yes, I already tried it)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 09:23:13 am by mabrungard »
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline Village Taphouse

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2368
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2021, 10:34:46 am »
Thanks, Martin:

Any thoughts on further kettle adjustment of pH at flameout?  I tried it for the first time last weekend (lactic acid addition at flameout) and am awaiting the tasting results on a Helles after it is done and lagered a bit.
First, thanks to Martin for the above reply.  Second, what I am slowly and stubbornly learning is that the pH we want for mashing is not low enough for using kettle finings and for fermentation... both for yeast health (apparently) and also for finished beer flavor.  This was mentioned in one of the links earlier in the thread (a BYO article, IIRC).  It said something like "there is a good range of pH for mashing and a good pH range for pitching yeast and LO AND BEHOLD THEY'RE NOT THE SAME!".  I'm paraphrasing.  That was a light-bulb moment for me.  For those who already knew this, I am just late to the party.  We're on the 10th page of this thread but only in recent pages has some of this come to light.  I made a pale lager a few months ago where I mashed in the mid 5s (5.5 room temp mash pH which should translate to around 5.25 or 5.3 at mash temp) and then I [blindly] added 1.5ml of 88% lactic acid with 10 minutes left in the boil.  The resulting beer was fantastic.  Clear, clean-tasting with a crisp finish.  Very refreshing.  We have had a lot of visitors to the house this summer and that beer disappeared quicker than any of the other ones.  There is clearly something beneficial to this approach and there is more "study" to be done. 

The part I was referring to was this:

Quote
Palmer discusses mash pH and beer flavor in his presentation, and distinguishes between optimal pH ranges for extract yield/enzymatic activity and optimal pH ranges for beer flavor. As it turns out the two brewing objectives are not always satisfied by the same mash pH. Go figure!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 10:40:10 am by Village Taphouse »
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline BrewNerd

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #141 on: August 17, 2021, 03:34:55 pm »
First up, this is fascinating.

But doesn't temperature alter pH readings or is that just hydrometer measures?

If it does then measuring pH at flame out temp would be pointless. If you want to manipulate your wort pH to make a better environment for your fermentation wouldn't it be better to take the pH prior to pitching?

Or did I just answer my own question? Wonder what Palmer has to say about that...

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27177
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2021, 04:03:32 pm »
First up, this is fascinating.

But doesn't temperature alter pH readings or is that just hydrometer measures?

If it does then measuring pH at flame out temp would be pointless. If you want to manipulate your wort pH to make a better environment for your fermentation wouldn't it be better to take the pH prior to pitching?

Or did I just answer my own question? Wonder what Palmer has to say about that...

It's pretty much the same thing.  You just cool the sample.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell