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Author Topic: Flameout pH adjustment...  (Read 12956 times)

Offline RC

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2021, 03:29:11 pm »
Silver, if you have access or links to any of those peer-reviewed docs/studies of yore, are you able to share? I did a brief Scholar search but then moved on because my attention span is measured in squirrels.

I've written much about this on another forum.  It spans many pages and lists sources, but I do not wish to merely duplicate it here.

Very helpful, thanks.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2021, 04:20:47 pm »
Silver, if you have access or links to any of those peer-reviewed docs/studies of yore, are you able to share? I did a brief Scholar search but then moved on because my attention span is measured in squirrels.

I've written much about this on another forum.  It spans many pages and lists sources, but I do not wish to merely duplicate it here.

Very helpful, thanks.

Here's a rabbit hole or two:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

For the record, I tend to agree with Ashton Lewis on this one, even though millions of homebrewers didn't understand and/or will choose not to agree.  I thought he made a decent attempt to gather references.  Silver and others took the discussion to higher levels on HBT.  I'll see if I can find some more rabbit holes.  Ah... heh... here, look at these:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/whats-your-preferred-mash-ph-target.599689/#post-7855362

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6168.msg74839#msg74839

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4739.msg56010#msg56010

In my own personal experience, measuring pH at mash temperature for a while now... I know that in my own brewing, pH tends to read 0.20-0.25 lower in the mash than at room temperature.  But specific variables also do matter, so, as with so many things in brewing, YMMV.

EDIT:

Ahh...... here's the BIG one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/yet-more-evidence-that-commercial-brewers-do-not-mash-at-5-2-to-5-6-ph.671764/
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 04:47:53 pm by dmtaylor »
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Offline RC

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2021, 03:31:07 pm »
Silver, if you have access or links to any of those peer-reviewed docs/studies of yore, are you able to share? I did a brief Scholar search but then moved on because my attention span is measured in squirrels.

I've written much about this on another forum.  It spans many pages and lists sources, but I do not wish to merely duplicate it here.

Very helpful, thanks.

Here's a rabbit hole or two:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/will-it-mash-at-ph-5-00.667992/page-2#post-8653242

https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

For the record, I tend to agree with Ashton Lewis on this one, even though millions of homebrewers didn't understand and/or will choose not to agree.  I thought he made a decent attempt to gather references.  Silver and others took the discussion to higher levels on HBT.  I'll see if I can find some more rabbit holes.  Ah... heh... here, look at these:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/whats-your-preferred-mash-ph-target.599689/#post-7855362

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=6168.msg74839#msg74839

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4739.msg56010#msg56010

In my own personal experience, measuring pH at mash temperature for a while now... I know that in my own brewing, pH tends to read 0.20-0.25 lower in the mash than at room temperature.  But specific variables also do matter, so, as with so many things in brewing, YMMV.

EDIT:

Ahh...... here's the BIG one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/yet-more-evidence-that-commercial-brewers-do-not-mash-at-5-2-to-5-6-ph.671764/

Thanks very much, dmtaylor. These links are enlightening reads. I will be tweaking my next few batches to shoot for a higher room-temp mash pH (i.e. 5.6-5.7), to see what if any difference it makes. Thanks again.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2021, 06:37:38 pm »
Thanks very much, dmtaylor. These links are enlightening reads. I will be tweaking my next few batches to shoot for a higher room-temp mash pH (i.e. 5.6-5.7), to see what if any difference it makes. Thanks again.

Be sure to adjust to a target of 5.1-5.2 pH post boil and cooling, and do so before or during the boil.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2021, 07:02:41 pm »
Be sure to adjust to a target of 5.1-5.2 pH post boil and cooling, and do so before or during the boil.
This is making me wince a little because I thought that the desired pH of the boil was around 5.5 (Kai had some things like this on his site).  I am doing 30m boils so I boil for 20 minutes in the mid-5s and then with 10 minutes left I adjust the boil with an acid addition which is supposed to make whirfloc more efficient.  The beers I have been doing this on are coming out very nicely and my clarity is better too.   The "during the boil" part sounds reasonable but the "before the boil" sounds like the boil would take place at a pH that was too low... or is there no "too low" when it comes to the pH of the boil?
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2021, 07:41:05 am »
This is making me wince a little because I thought that the desired pH of the boil was around 5.5 (Kai had some things like this on his site).  I am doing 30m boils so I boil for 20 minutes in the mid-5s and then with 10 minutes left I adjust the boil with an acid addition which is supposed to make whirfloc more efficient.  The beers I have been doing this on are coming out very nicely and my clarity is better too.   The "during the boil" part sounds reasonable but the "before the boil" sounds like the boil would take place at a pH that was too low... or is there no "too low" when it comes to the pH of the boil?

The higher the pH going into the boil, the greater the pH drop observed across the boil.  An ~0.30 pH drop across the boil for the case of entering the boil at ~5.8 pH (room temp) dwindles to a pH drop of ~zero across the boil for the case of entering the boil at a pH of ~5.0 (room temp).  The often parroted presumption of a fixed 0.30 pH point drop anticipated across the boil is highly flawed.  I speculate it to have been 'potentially' derived from test mashes (Congress Mashes) involving only what is most likely to be a single Pilsner type malt.

I have derived this tentative formula from the linear regression of some (admittedly sparse) data points sourced from Narziss:
pH_Knockout ~= 1.86336 + (0.62686 * pH_Pre-Boil)
[wherein both variables represent room temperature measured pH's]
« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 08:06:14 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline goose

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2021, 08:29:31 am »
I need to digest this a bit more.  I always measure pre-pitch wort pH but never really worry too much about it.  I usually end up in the sweet spot 5.1-5.2 range but the Amarillo IPA I made a couple days ago ended up around 5.5.  Granted my mash pH was a bit high 5.7-5.8 at room temperature and I corrected it with some phosphoric acid.

I have now seen this twice in this recipe and plan to add a bit of acidulated malt to the next batch to bring the pH down in the mash tun a bit more.  The calcium hydroxide and baking soda additions to the mash liquor are minimal so they should not have dragged the pH up very much.  There is a lot of gypsum and epsom salts in my water profile but not enough to stabilize the pH at 5.48 like Bru'nWater predicts.  BTW, this is my own designed water profile for a West Coast IPA.  Also to note, the beer tastes pretty damn good with this pre-pitch wort pH.
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2021, 08:41:26 am »
A careful read of the BYO "retraction" as linked above by @dmtaylor indicates that it is an affirmation and not a retraction:

 https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2021, 09:16:32 am »
A careful read of the BYO "retraction" as linked above by @dmtaylor indicates that it is an affirmation and not a retraction:

 https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/
Mmm, that was excellent.  I ate that article like I haven't eaten in a week!  :D  A number of things that were bouncing around in my delightful coconut were put to rest in that article so I thank Silver_Is_Money very much for linking to it.  One thing that hit me right in the head was the part where Palmer mentions that the correct pH for mashing and boiling MAY NOT be the correct pH for beer flavor and this is one of the things I am focusing on now:  Mashing and boiling in the mid-5s (room temp) and then adding an acid addition to the kettle with 10 minutes left to 1) help the whirfloc do its job and 2) create a more pleasant-tasting beer by lowering the pH.  A few beers I have on tap right now tell me this approach has merit.  Better clarity and a nice, refreshing *SNAP* from the lowered pH. 

I still have some questions regarding clarity and boiling at a lower pH but some here have already responded that they may be boiling at a pH of 5.2 to 5.3 (room temp pH) and do not experience clarity issues so that might be able to be put to rest too.
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2021, 11:40:17 am »
I'm slogging through that long HBT tread.

Some good stuff there, amongst the chaff.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2021, 01:13:22 pm »
Man, this is blowing my mind. For those of us who don't have pH meters, let's say you mash at a room temp mash pH of 5.5, which is in the 5.25 pH range at mash temp, which for something like a pilsner would be perfect. How much acid would theoretically be needed to drop the pH down to a good range for post boil pH? I'm using 88% lactic acid. I used to use 1mL near the end of the boil. Should I increase that to 2mL?
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2021, 01:22:53 pm »
Man, this is blowing my mind. For those of us who don't have pH meters, let's say you mash at a room temp mash pH of 5.5, which is in the 5.25 pH range at mash temp, which for something like a pilsner would be perfect. How much acid would theoretically be needed to drop the pH down to a good range for post boil pH? I'm using 88% lactic acid. I used to use 1mL near the end of the boil. Should I increase that to 2mL?

It depends upon the grist's weight, the grist's aggregate BC (buffering capacity expressed in units of mEq/KG_pH), the grist's aggregate DIpH (pH when mashed within deionized or distilled water), and the actual (as opposed to targeted) room temperature pH one reads pre-boil.  Much of this is being actively and ongoingly feted out and discussed here:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/make-the-water-calc-for-both-mash-boil-a-total-brew-calc.14964/#post-144629

Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2021, 01:39:55 pm »
So I'm wondering if mashing higher, there would need to be a, say, 1mL lactic acid addition at the beginning of the boil, then another one just before the end of the boil. Because sparging is going to raise the pH of the wort in the kettle overall. I batch sparge and do not acidify the sparge water.
Jesse

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2021, 02:13:43 pm »
IME, acid additions towards the end of the boil seem to have a very small impact.  I once measured my mid-boil pH and it was something like 5.47 and then I added 1ml of 88% lactic acid and when I took the pH as the wort was headed into the fermenter, it was 5.45 and both samples were measured at room temp.  I'm trying to keep my mind from being blown so please don't say this is blowing your mind.  :P  :D 
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Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2021, 02:19:58 pm »
IME, acid additions towards the end of the boil seem to have a very small impact.  I once measured my mid-boil pH and it was something like 5.47 and then I added 1ml of 88% lactic acid and when I took the pH as the wort was headed into the fermenter, it was 5.45 and both samples were measured at room temp.  I'm trying to keep my mind from being blown so please don't say this is blowing your mind.  :P  :D 
Well, hmmpf...I kind of just want to put a bag over my head and keep doing what I'm doing... But if this could mean even better beer, well, has to be worth exploring I'd think. My main worry now, is if I'm mashing at a higher pH and by your observations the pH isn't changing much during the boil, I'm worried about my post boil pH being too high. Is that confusing enough?
Jesse