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Author Topic: Flameout pH adjustment...  (Read 13398 times)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #90 on: August 10, 2021, 03:50:58 pm »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 :o   8)

Well, okay, and then maybe add a little acid at the END of the mash / before the boil, maybe.  Or not.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 03:52:47 pm by dmtaylor »
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Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2021, 03:59:13 pm »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 :o   8)

Well, okay, and then maybe add a little acid at the END of the mash / before the boil, maybe.  Or not.
Dude! That isn't helping clear up any confusion! ;p
Jesse

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2021, 04:18:46 pm »
I don't really expect you to answer these questions, I just feel like I all of a sudden know nothing... ;D

Mashing at a room temperature measured pH of 5.6 (or thereabouts) makes it imperative that a properly computed and executed pH adjustment to a room temperature targeted pH of 5.1 to 5.2 pH post boil and cooling is undertaken during the boil, at the latest with ~10 minutes of boil time remaining, and definitely before adding fining.

The main benefits in doing it in just this way are in maximizing hop utilization (and thereby minimizing requisite hop mass), and maximizing hot break, and minimizing fining mass.  And for those who filter, in minimizing the mass of added plate and frame filtrate media required.  A final 'potential' benefit is in aiding the yeast in their endeavor to adjust the wort to their desired final beer pH (while reducing the potential for yeast stress while they accomplish this task). 

I'm not of the opinion that conversion yield will be measurably improved.  Nor am I of the opinion that beer flavor will necessarily (if at all) be improved.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 04:25:45 pm by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #93 on: August 10, 2021, 04:23:28 pm »
I don't really expect you to answer these questions, I just feel like I all of a sudden know nothing... ;D

Mashing at a room temperature measured pH of 5.6 makes it imperative that a properly computed and executed pH adjustment to a room temperature targeted pH of 5.1 to 5.2 pH is undertaken during the boil, at the latest with ~10 minutes of boil time remaining, and definitely before adding fining.

The main benefits in doing it in just this way are in maximizing hop utilization (and thereby minimizing requisite hop mass), and maximizing hot break, and minimizing fining mass.  And for those who filter, in minimizing the mass of added plate and frame filtrate media required.  A final 'potential' benefit is in aiding the yeast in their endeavor to adjust the wort to their desired final beer pH (while reducing the potential for yeast stress while they accomplish this task). 

I'm not of the opinion that conversion yield will be measurably improved.  Nor am I of the opinion that beer flavor will necessarily (if at all) be improved.
Great info. Thanks!
Jesse

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #94 on: August 10, 2021, 05:05:39 pm »
By the way, Ken - This whole thread started because you had clarity issues and some flabby beers. The thing that worries me is if mashing higher and not adding enough end-of-boil acid to drop the pH into the correct range, wouldn't that produce more flabby beers or am I missing something?
I had a couple of beers where I mashed and boiled with a mid-5s pH and I did not add a late boil addition of acid.  It may have been my mind playing with me but I was thinking that one that I tasted WAS a little flabby.  So I added 1ml of lactic acid right to the keg!   :o  I tried it again a couple days later and it was very nice and not only that... I had some people over last weekend and many said that their favorite beer of the four on tap was that particular beer.   It's not the type of thing I would want to do on a regular basis but if you can add salts, etc. to a beer post-fermentation then you can add some lactic as well.  So I think you have a way to address it if necessary until you're more comfortable with it. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2021, 05:08:32 pm »
I don't really expect you to answer these questions, I just feel like I all of a sudden know nothing... ;D

Mashing at a room temperature measured pH of 5.6 (or thereabouts) makes it imperative that a properly computed and executed pH adjustment to a room temperature targeted pH of 5.1 to 5.2 pH post boil and cooling is undertaken during the boil, at the latest with ~10 minutes of boil time remaining, and definitely before adding fining.

The main benefits in doing it in just this way are in maximizing hop utilization (and thereby minimizing requisite hop mass), and maximizing hot break, and minimizing fining mass.  And for those who filter, in minimizing the mass of added plate and frame filtrate media required.  A final 'potential' benefit is in aiding the yeast in their endeavor to adjust the wort to their desired final beer pH (while reducing the potential for yeast stress while they accomplish this task). 

I'm not of the opinion that conversion yield will be measurably improved.  Nor am I of the opinion that beer flavor will necessarily (if at all) be improved.
Yeah, this should be on a t-shirt.  A big t-shirt but a t-shirt nonetheless.  :P
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Offline BrewBama

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Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2021, 06:03:39 pm »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 …



[opinion]

When I brew beer I don’t make it a science experiment. I let the beer make itself and I just move liquid from vessel to vessel.  I do this for fun and a good pint of HomeBrew.

Instead of doing all this calculus, it’s a whole lot easier to simply 1) mash grains that require it, leave out those specialty grains that don’t, 2) use distilled, RO, or other low TDS water, 3) along with 1 tsp CaCl or gypsum or a combination of the two equalling 1 tsp for the calcium. After the mash is complete, add the specialty malts that don’t require mashing for a 30 min hot steep either in the mash tun or in the kettle. 1,2,3 Easy peasy.

You can take a mash pH reading if you want to but as many times as I’ve done this now you don’t need to because it always falls in spec on it’s own.

pH in the mash only goes wacka doodle when you mash a bunch of specialty malts or crazy pH/high TDS water that screw with pH. Once the mash is complete, pH takes care of itself.

[/opinion]



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« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 09:33:51 pm by BrewBama »

Offline denny

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2021, 06:58:28 pm »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 :o   8)

Well, okay, and then maybe add a little acid at the END of the mash / before the boil, maybe.  Or not.

But then we'd be homebrewers...
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2021, 07:24:56 am »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 …



[opinion]

When I brew beer I don’t make it a science experiment. I let the beer make itself and I just move liquid from vessel to vessel.  I do this for fun and a good pint of HomeBrew.

Instead of doing all this calculus, it’s a whole lot easier to simply 1) mash grains that require it, leave out those specialty grains that don’t, 2) use distilled, RO, or other low TDS water, 3) along with 1 tsp CaCl or gypsum or a combination of the two equalling 1 tsp for the calcium. After the mash is complete, add the specialty malts that don’t require mashing for a 30 min hot steep either in the mash tun or in the kettle. 1,2,3 Easy peasy.

You can take a mash pH reading if you want to but as many times as I’ve done this now you don’t need to because it always falls in spec on it’s own.

pH in the mash only goes wacka doodle when you mash a bunch of specialty malts or crazy pH/high TDS water that screw with pH. Once the mash is complete, pH takes care of itself.

[/opinion]



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No adding acid to your mash or end of boil to drop pH at all? I like the simplicity of this, but worry about pH being too high for post-boil.
Jesse

Offline goose

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #99 on: August 11, 2021, 07:36:05 am »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 :o   8)

Well, okay, and then maybe add a little acid at the END of the mash / before the boil, maybe.  Or not.

But then we'd be homebrewers...

Good one, Denny!
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2021, 07:37:34 am »
What if we just don't friggin worry about mash pH anymore as long as it's about 5.4-5.5 as measured at ANY temperature?

 …



[opinion]

When I brew beer I don’t make it a science experiment. I let the beer make itself and I just move liquid from vessel to vessel.  I do this for fun and a good pint of HomeBrew.

Instead of doing all this calculus, it’s a whole lot easier to simply 1) mash grains that require it, leave out those specialty grains that don’t, 2) use distilled, RO, or other low TDS water, 3) along with 1 tsp CaCl or gypsum or a combination of the two equalling 1 tsp for the calcium. After the mash is complete, add the specialty malts that don’t require mashing for a 30 min hot steep either in the mash tun or in the kettle. 1,2,3 Easy peasy.

You can take a mash pH reading if you want to but as many times as I’ve done this now you don’t need to because it always falls in spec on it’s own.

pH in the mash only goes wacka doodle when you mash a bunch of specialty malts or crazy pH/high TDS water that screw with pH. Once the mash is complete, pH takes care of itself.

[/opinion]



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No adding acid to your mash or end of boil to drop pH at all? I like the simplicity of this, but worry about pH being too high for post-boil.
I feel like I asked BB about that but I don't remember the answer.  It does seem necessary to add the later addition of acid if the mash + boil pH is in the mid-5s.  I do think there is a flavor benefit as well. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline BrewBama

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Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2021, 08:04:04 am »
I have added 1/8 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid to 9 gal distilled water to create total brewhaus liquor in the ~5-5.5ish pH range. I strike and sparge with that.  I have  also left it out with zero issue whatsoever. Even if I do or don’t add the 1/8 tsp, after the mash is complete I do not add additional acid.

Some folks enjoy the technicalities of brewing. There are plenty of really thick technical books and lots of calculations to take them down that road.  I am simply not one of them.

There are many ways to enjoy brewing beer at home. Not saying any other way is wrong. This is just the way I do it.

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 08:18:04 am by BrewBama »

Offline RC

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2021, 08:28:29 am »
I've been homebrewing for a long time. It has become very rote for me. I love the end result, and I make good beer, but I have been on autopilot for a while. I need a new challenge.

pH is an aspect of the process I have historically not paid much attention to. It presents a new frontier for me. It's not about "worrying" about it, it's about having a new independent variable to play with and learn more about, which might help revive my flagging interest in the hobby.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2021, 08:29:17 am »
BB's IDGAF attitude resonated with me (BB, I know you GAF and your beers look awesome to me) so I did something similar by getting my water (source water, not RO or distilled) to a pH of 5.5 prior to heating it.  That's been working nicely.  I have also withheld dark grains (in my case, midnight wheat) until the mash was done so that the darker grains did not futz with the pH.  I probably won't do that with most crystals but I would do it with MW and Carafa.  I have also held onto some of the LO steps:  Yeast + sugar top deox the water first, underletting my mash, using a mash cap, purging the keg with CO2 from the fermentation, doing a closed-transfer from fermenter-to-keg, etc.  I have also been adding a late addition of acid with 10 minutes left in the boil.  Believe it or not, that's simplified.  I cut out BTB altogether as well as the SMB + ascorbic acid.  I take one pH reading now after the mash has sat for a bit and that's just to confirm that the mash pH is where I expected it to be... which it always is because I start around 5.5 and do not add any dark grains to the mash.  The mash pH is always 5.4 to maybe 5.55 at room temp. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline beersk

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Re: Flameout pH adjustment...
« Reply #104 on: August 11, 2021, 09:23:23 am »
BB's IDGAF attitude resonated with me (BB, I know you GAF and your beers look awesome to me) so I did something similar by getting my water (source water, not RO or distilled) to a pH of 5.5 prior to heating it.  That's been working nicely.  I have also withheld dark grains (in my case, midnight wheat) until the mash was done so that the darker grains did not futz with the pH.  I probably won't do that with most crystals but I would do it with MW and Carafa.  I have also held onto some of the LO steps:  Yeast + sugar top deox the water first, underletting my mash, using a mash cap, purging the keg with CO2 from the fermentation, doing a closed-transfer from fermenter-to-keg, etc.  I have also been adding a late addition of acid with 10 minutes left in the boil.  Believe it or not, that's simplified.  I cut out BTB altogether as well as the SMB + ascorbic acid.  I take one pH reading now after the mash has sat for a bit and that's just to confirm that the mash pH is where I expected it to be... which it always is because I start around 5.5 and do not add any dark grains to the mash.  The mash pH is always 5.4 to maybe 5.55 at room temp. 
Sounds like you have a good handle on your process, Ken. I also do the yeast oxygen scavenging process for zero o2 water from time to time and I feel that probably lowers the pH to a decent range although I've read it doesn't have any meaningful impact on mash pH. It might be good for sparging though and you'd be sparging with already somewhat acidified water versus pH 7 or higher water.
Jesse