[jbarker745]

So I've got it in my head to try a dark lager which would be my first lagered beer, and I am really struggling to make sense of how to think about lagering in the first place. My understanding of lagering is that it was a cold-temp conditioning process after initial fermentation followed by a diacetyl rest that does a lot to affect the flavor profile, tied to bottom fermenting yeast and so on (I'm not super technical on all of it), and which of course results in a clearer beer.

But looking into recipes and trying to make sense of it, a lot of writers seem to treat "lagering" as nothing more than a clarifying step, and I've even seen recipes that just say to cold-crash the secondary for 24 hours after a week, then bottle, 14 days after brewing. That definitely doesn't sound right to me.

Similarly, I've seen lots of references to lagering as part of a bottle conditioning process, while other references claim that lagering has to happen at atmospheric pressure. So, in short, I'm confused and want to know what to do:

Do I ferment at 45-55 F for a week, transfer to a secondary and condition for 4 weeks at near freezing, then bottle with priming sugar and condition for min. 2 weeks at ~65 to carbonate?

Or can I go through primary fermentation, add to a secondary for a week then cold-crash it to clarify, before transferring to bottles with priming sugar and the cold storing the bottles at near freezing for 4-6 weeks, allowing the lagering to happen along with carbonation?

Any feedback would be deeply appreciated.

[denny]

Either way...whatever works best for you.  FWIW, I have judged 2 BOS rounds where the winning beer was a lager that was never lagered at all.

[jbarker745]

Do you mind my asking, then, what's a lager? Is it just a clarified beer fermented with lager yeast? Again, I'm somewhat new to all this--I thought lagering was crucial to differentiating the beer from just another ale.

[dannyjed]

There is no need to secondary the beer. I would ferment around 50-55 degrees, bring it up to 60 after most of fermentation is completed, cold crash for a couple of days or weeks, then prime and bottle. You need to keep the bottles at least at 65 for a few weeks to carbonate.


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[denny]

Do you mind my asking, then, what's a lager? Is it just a clarified beer fermented with lager yeast? Again, I'm somewhat new to all this--I thought lagering was crucial to differentiating the beer from just another ale.

Darn good question.  I'm not as uptight about it as I used to be, when I insisted it had to use lager yeast and be cold conditioned.  Now my feeling is that if it looks and tastes like a lager, call it a lager.  I'm sure others will disagree.

[BrewBama]

There’s nothing mystical about brewing a Lager over an Ale. Generally, you use Saccharomyces pastorianus, ferment it ~10*F cooler than an Ale, and store it cool for a period of time to develop flavor characteristics. Nothing to it really. Of course the devil is in the details.

And of course, none of which is required.

Several successful breweries use Saccharomyces cerevisiae, ferment it at ‘Ale temps’, and serve their ‘Lager’ when it drops clear. The genome study results revealed to us all that many Lager yeasts are really Ale yeasts.

It’s an age old argument: what makes a Lager a Lager.

[jbarker745]

Ha! Well it's good to know I shouldn't get too bogged down in the details then. I suppose if it's good to drink once you're done is the most important part, regardless of whether it comes out as expected. One last question if anyone has thoughts: I'm probably gonna do the storage part in the fermenter before bottling. I was curious whether there'd be enough yeast left to carbonate in the bottle. Some people seem not to have an issue, others recommend using a bottling yeast. I haven't had an issue with bottle conditioning to carbonate yet, but wonder if anyone has thoughts about erring on the side of caution of adding more yeast with the priming sugar after such a lengthy and clarifying process.

[ynotbrusum]

There will be plenty of suspended yeast if it hasn't gone through a long period of cold storage (even then, it might carb up anyway) or it is not a super high gravity beer (where the yeast are too pooped to go further on added sugars).  Keep it in the primary up until bottling and you will be fine bottling from a bottling bucket right after transfer.

I brew a lot of lagers and don't worry anymore about the genomic sequencing issues (lineage and such) - instead I am concerned about using the yeast that I like for the results I expect.  Many times, I can turn a lager in under a week of fermenting, then spunded to a keg and a week or so later, the keg is carbed.  Lagers and ales are more alike than many of us originally thought, but there is something special about the crispness of a well made lager bier.  Good luck with your dark lager!

[jimdrew]

I missed it if someone else mentioned it, but generally you want to pitch a lot more yeast for lagers (fermenting cooler temps). I haven't done enough to reliably say, "pitch double what you'd pitch for an ale..." I've followed this and had good results and would be curious whether or not people don't think bigger pitches are necessary?

[majorvices]

Do you mind my asking, then, what's a lager? Is it just a clarified beer fermented with lager yeast? Again, I'm somewhat new to all this--I thought lagering was crucial to differentiating the beer from just another ale.

I agree with denny that if it tastes like a lager then why not call t a lager? I have brewed "lager" beers with WY1007 and have fooled Germans at a beer fest. It tasted like a lager.

That said, technically a lager is a beer brewed with a lager yeast strain Saccharomyces pastorianus. Brewing with this strain is a little different since you generally need about 2Xs more yeast than an ale yeast and ferment at cooler temps. Wether you actually lager it or not doesn't make it a lager. You can "lager"an ale after all.

[Saccharomyces]

One of the key differences I note between between lager and ale is sulfur.  It does not have to be there in large amounts, but if one drinks lager after drinking ale, it is easy to sense it (it comes across as a light lima bean flavor).  From what I understand, the word "lager" is derived from the German word "lagern," which means to store (Jeff, feel free to correct me). I always found that transferring a lager to a keg and allowing it to condition at 4C (40F) or below for a few weeks improves the flavor.  Lager just seems to get better the longer it is stored.  The beer becomes rounder.  Sadly, I do not have that much storage or patience.

[beerdoc]

The main thing that defines lager beer, in contrast to ale, is the fermentation temperature. Lager < 60 F. Ale > 60 F. The cleaner flavor, the use of  for S. pastorianus yeast, the slower fermentation, and the cold storage to remove diacetyl all flow from the lower fermentation temperature. That said, it makes complete sense to go by flavor. If it tastes like a lager, and smells like a lager, and looks like a lager, it's a lager.

[majorvices]

The main thing that defines lager beer, in contrast to ale, is the fermentation temperature. Lager < 60 F. Ale > 60 F. The cleaner flavor, the use of  for S. pastorianus yeast, the slower fermentation, and the cold storage to remove diacetyl all flow from the lower fermentation temperature. That said, it makes complete sense to go by flavor. If it tastes like a lager, and smells like a lager, and looks like a lager, it's a lager.

Well, technically Anchor Steam is a lager since it uses a lager yeast and it isn't fermented cool. Also there are lagers fermented under pressure at 70F and technically these are lagers as well.

That said, your definition fits my personal definition.

[RC]

The supposed flavor improvement from true lagering that others have brought up is a bit of a fallacy. The improvement comes not from flavors developing during this cold conditioning, but from unwanted stuff dropping out of the beer and sedimenting. This happens with any beer, although it may be more noticeable in a kolsch vs. an IPA because the former is more "delicate." With homebrewing, a weeks-long lagering period might result in drinking more oxidized beer when you do finally get around to drinking it. I suggest treating your lagers the same as any other beer, and I second the advice to pitch ~2x yeast, regardless of ale or lager, if you ferment at ~50.

[denny]

One of the key differences I note between between lager and ale is sulfur.  It does not have to be there in large amounts, but if one drinks lager after drinking ale, it is easy to sense it (it comes across as a light lima bean flavor).  From what I understand, the word "lager" is derived from the German word "lagern," which means to store (Jeff, feel free to correct me). I always found that transferring a lager to a keg and allowing it to condition at 4C (40F) or below for a few weeks improves the flavor.  Lager just seems to get better the longer it is stored.  The beer becomes rounder.  Sadly, I do not have that much storage or patience.

I don't recall ever getting sulfur at all in a dark lager.