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Author Topic: Correct Grain For Red Color?  (Read 9832 times)

Offline Descardeci

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2021, 06:38:07 am »
The vast majority of English beer over the last 150+ years has been colored with caramel. I don't get the stigma here.

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In Brazil this also have no stigma, one the biggest brewshop have a brew of the bimonth they made a challenge to make a dark cream ale using caramel to coloring, no flavor impact, and the idea is realy good, imagine a american lite coloring using this, but Thanks all for the tip in the red x malt

Offline denny

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2021, 09:02:44 am »
I am fairly certain that the red color in Killians is the result of some kind of coloring.  Other than color, that beer was not far from a bog standard NAIL. At least Pete's had enough flavor to differentiate it from a basic NAIL.

Perhaps, but I doubt they use coloring...unless it comes from grains. We toured the Coors Brewery 3 times, and we did the special “Executive Tour” once. Killian’s was served on tap, and tasted darn good.

I have also heard the Shiner uses coloring agents in their Bock beer. But I doubt that also.

I don't really doubt either of those.  What makes you think they don't use coloring?

The use of coloring agents in beer would be non-kosher. While it is possible, it would indicate a lower class of brewery. As in, we have to "cheat" to get the color right because we don't have the technical expertise to do it with grains only.

Can't speak for Shiner, but after doing the executive tour at Coors, I'm confident they do not use coloring agents.

Do any home brewers add coloring?

From their website: https://www.molsoncoors.com/node/521

Even German breweries add color. Where do you think Sinamar came from?
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2021, 10:44:52 am »
I am fairly certain that the red color in Killians is the result of some kind of coloring.  Other than color, that beer was not far from a bog standard NAIL. At least Pete's had enough flavor to differentiate it from a basic NAIL.

Perhaps, but I doubt they use coloring...unless it comes from grains. We toured the Coors Brewery 3 times, and we did the special “Executive Tour” once. Killian’s was served on tap, and tasted darn good.

I have also heard the Shiner uses coloring agents in their Bock beer. But I doubt that also.

I don't really doubt either of those.  What makes you think they don't use coloring?

The use of coloring agents in beer would be non-kosher. While it is possible, it would indicate a lower class of brewery. As in, we have to "cheat" to get the color right because we don't have the technical expertise to do it with grains only.

Can't speak for Shiner, but after doing the executive tour at Coors, I'm confident they do not use coloring agents.

Do any home brewers add coloring?

From their website: https://www.molsoncoors.com/node/521

Even German breweries add color. Where do you think Sinamar came from?

Does that not conflict with the Purity Law? This pertains to their domestic marketed beers only. What is exported can have anything in it, even Red Dye #1.

Hofbrau, Becks, Spaten, Paulaner, plus the other main-line German Breweries most likely do not add coloring.

Can you post evidence that would prove otherwise?

Found the following, but to me it is still not acceptable.

As is common in wine and liquor, the color of beer may be adjusted upward (toward higher color) by the use of a number of compounds. The most important is caramel color. See caramel color. A related product is Farbebier (German for “coloring beer”), a product developed in Germany as a coloring agent allowed by the Reinheitsgebot (German purity law). See reinheitsgebot. Although totally undrinkable, Farbebier is technically an extremely dark beer brewed with black malt exclusively, and therefore it may used without label declaration in most countries.

There are two normal reasons a brewer may use coloring agents in beer. The first is as a color corrective, used in small dosages as a final correction of the color of a wide range of beers. But it may also be used as part of the actual construction of a beer. As coloring agents are—at normally used concentrations—virtually without aroma or flavor, they can be used for producing dark beers with much less roasted aroma, flavor, and taste than would result from using dark malts to achieve the same color. An industrial brewer may thereby use a form of food coloring to give a beer the appearance of rich flavors where none may actually exist.

So revered is the Reinheitsgebot that the German Brewers' Association applied in December of last year for the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (Unesco) to give it protected "world heritage" status.

"We made a survey [in Germany], and asked people if they wanted to have beer brewed under the purity law, and more than 90% said they wanted to stick to the purity law.

"There are some things that Germany stands for and one of them is German beer... we want to show the world that we have a very old tradition."

Offline BrewBama

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Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2021, 11:09:04 am »
Sinamar is made to the purity law standard. It doesn’t violate the standard. Many beers are exported to meet the now defunct law in an order to meet nostalgic marketing.

It’s the same reason they use acid malt vs adding liquid acid.  They have to control pH but they want to be able to say they meet the purity law so they can print it on a label or  put it in a commercial. It does the same thing they just can’t pour it from a bottle.

Edit:  if you are concerned about adding Sinamar for color then steeping crystal or dark grains (because neither needs to be mashed) is going to really bug you.

You might be concerned that the guy who’s won best home brewer more times than anyone, who is the highest ranked beer judge in the world, and who wrote the style guidelines advocates steeping vs mashing dark grains and crystal malts — which is basically what Sinamar is (steeped black malt then concentrated).

...and wait till you hear about genetically modified yeast.

Traveling as much as you do, and drinking beers in Europe, I can pretty much assure you that some of the best beers you’ve ever tasted included coloring agents in them.

Cheers!

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« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 12:44:49 pm by BrewBama »

Offline majorvices

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2021, 12:16:33 pm »
Sinamar is RHG compliant. You might be surprised where I saw some 5 liter jugs of it in the US.

And it works great, too

Offline denny

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2021, 12:37:50 pm »
I am fairly certain that the red color in Killians is the result of some kind of coloring.  Other than color, that beer was not far from a bog standard NAIL. At least Pete's had enough flavor to differentiate it from a basic NAIL.

Perhaps, but I doubt they use coloring...unless it comes from grains. We toured the Coors Brewery 3 times, and we did the special “Executive Tour” once. Killian’s was served on tap, and tasted darn good.

I have also heard the Shiner uses coloring agents in their Bock beer. But I doubt that also.

I don't really doubt either of those.  What makes you think they don't use coloring?

The use of coloring agents in beer would be non-kosher. While it is possible, it would indicate a lower class of brewery. As in, we have to "cheat" to get the color right because we don't have the technical expertise to do it with grains only.

Can't speak for Shiner, but after doing the executive tour at Coors, I'm confident they do not use coloring agents.

Do any home brewers add coloring?

From their website: https://www.molsoncoors.com/node/521

Even German breweries add color. Where do you think Sinamar came from?

Does that not conflict with the Purity Law? This pertains to their domestic marketed beers only. What is exported can have anything in it, even Red Dye #1.

Hofbrau, Becks, Spaten, Paulaner, plus the other main-line German Breweries most likely do not add coloring.

Can you post evidence that would prove otherwise?

Found the following, but to me it is still not acceptable.

As is common in wine and liquor, the color of beer may be adjusted upward (toward higher color) by the use of a number of compounds. The most important is caramel color. See caramel color. A related product is Farbebier (German for “coloring beer”), a product developed in Germany as a coloring agent allowed by the Reinheitsgebot (German purity law). See reinheitsgebot. Although totally undrinkable, Farbebier is technically an extremely dark beer brewed with black malt exclusively, and therefore it may used without label declaration in most countries.

There are two normal reasons a brewer may use coloring agents in beer. The first is as a color corrective, used in small dosages as a final correction of the color of a wide range of beers. But it may also be used as part of the actual construction of a beer. As coloring agents are—at normally used concentrations—virtually without aroma or flavor, they can be used for producing dark beers with much less roasted aroma, flavor, and taste than would result from using dark malts to achieve the same color. An industrial brewer may thereby use a form of food coloring to give a beer the appearance of rich flavors where none may actually exist.

So revered is the Reinheitsgebot that the German Brewers' Association applied in December of last year for the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (Unesco) to give it protected "world heritage" status.

"We made a survey [in Germany], and asked people if they wanted to have beer brewed under the purity law, and more than 90% said they wanted to stick to the purity law.

"There are some things that Germany stands for and one of them is German beer... we want to show the world that we have a very old tradition."

Ever had a Kostritzer schwarzbier?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2021, 03:34:24 pm »

Ever had a Kostritzer schwarzbier?

Bingo!
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2021, 04:23:30 pm »
Sinamar is just LME made from Carafa Special - from Wyermann

LME SINAMAR® is produced solely from our roasted malt CARAFA®, according to the strict German "Reinheitsgebot" (purity-law).

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2021, 04:33:07 pm »

Ever had a Kostritzer schwarzbier?

Bingo!

https://www.bitburger-international.com/en/our-brands/koestritzer/our-products/koestritzer-schwarzbier/

Sinamar is made from Carafa II special IIRC, and that is roasted .malted barley. The Carafa is steeped, the liquid is drawn off, yeast is added for one hour so that it can be called bier. I got last last from Ray Daniels, when had talked to Sabine Wyermann when in Bamberg.  They must throw in one hop pellet. ;-)
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2021, 08:32:55 am »
And here is the response direct from the Bitburger Brewery, when asked about "coloring agents" used in beer:

Dear Mr. Oleson,

Thank you for your email and your interest in our company.

Please note that our beer is brewed according to the German Purity Law (Deutsches Reinheitsgebot). Therefore only malted barley, hops (not chemically treated) and water are allowed as ingredients. For fermentation a yeast is used.

Furthermore we would like to inform you that for Köstritzer black lager beer we use a special roasted malt. Due to these roasted malt the color of the beer is darker than the normal lager beer.

Kind regards,

Doreen Tietze


So now we know the answer...no coloring agents are used.

 


Offline majorvices

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2021, 08:48:06 am »
FTR I don't consider Sinimar a "coloring agent" since it is just an extract of a "special roasted malt"...

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2021, 08:56:03 am »
+1. They told you they use dark roasted malt. They didn’t say how they added it. It’s simply roasted malt extract.

Likewise with hops. They could use hop extract and still comply with the purity standard. (Not that they do but they could)

Ask them to clarify: do they use Sinamar?


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Offline denny

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2021, 08:58:28 am »
Sinamar is just LME made from Carafa Special - from Wyermann

LME SINAMAR® is produced solely from our roasted malt CARAFA®, according to the strict German "Reinheitsgebot" (purity-law).

I dunno if I actually call it LME, but it's in the ballpark
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Offline denny

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Re: Correct Grain For Red Color?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2021, 08:59:30 am »
And here is the response direct from the Bitburger Brewery, when asked about "coloring agents" used in beer:

Dear Mr. Oleson,

Thank you for your email and your interest in our company.

Please note that our beer is brewed according to the German Purity Law (Deutsches Reinheitsgebot). Therefore only malted barley, hops (not chemically treated) and water are allowed as ingredients. For fermentation a yeast is used.

Furthermore we would like to inform you that for Köstritzer black lager beer we use a special roasted malt. Due to these roasted malt the color of the beer is darker than the normal lager beer.

Kind regards,

Doreen Tietze


So now we know the answer...no coloring agents are used.

No, that's not what that says.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell