[Bilsch]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

[majorvices]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

To be clear, it had nothing to do with "resistance to change" and everything to do with his attitude that "You are stupid if you don't brew the same way I do" and then the argumentative crap that it spawned. If you don't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for those people who want to LoDo brew ... that doesn't mean people are "stupid" if they choose not to.

Furthermore, nothing that has been discussed in this thread is new or discovered via LoDo brewing techniques. The dark malt antioxidant properties go back to Papazian's first book for crying out loud.

[denny]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

To be clear, it had nothing to do with "resistance to change" and everything to do with his attitude that "You are stupid if you don't brew the same way I do" and then the argumentative crap that it spawned. If you don't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for those people who want to LoDo brew ... that doesn't mean people are "stupid" if they choose not to.

Furthermore, nothing that has been discussed in this thread is new or discovered via LoDo brewing techniques. The dark malt antioxidant properties go back to Papazian's first book for crying out loud.

All of this...

[fredthecat]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

To be clear, it had nothing to do with "resistance to change" and everything to do with his attitude that "You are stupid if you don't brew the same way I do" and then the argumentative crap that it spawned. If you don't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for those people who want to LoDo brew ... that doesn't mean people are "stupid" if they choose not to.

Furthermore, nothing that has been discussed in this thread is new or discovered via LoDo brewing techniques. The dark malt antioxidant properties go back to Papazian's first book for crying out loud.

yup, absolutely. i do not imagine any time i will be home canning my beer or buying any equipment making my total equipment bill over 1000 dollars or so unless i come into a lot of money. im sure some of you disagree, but thats my choice.

and in a lot of beer styles, these things dont apply or arent noticeable.

i think he makes great beer, but it probably costs 20 dollars a can. so... yeah.

[Bilsch]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

To be clear, it had nothing to do with "resistance to change" and everything to do with his attitude that "You are stupid if you don't brew the same way I do" and then the argumentative crap that it spawned. If you don't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for those people who want to LoDo brew ... that doesn't mean people are "stupid" if they choose not to.

Furthermore, nothing that has been discussed in this thread is new or discovered via LoDo brewing techniques. The dark malt antioxidant properties go back to Papazian's first book for crying out loud.

I was also here when all that went down but my experience of it was, obviously, radically different. Instead of taking offense by what he said, I decided there might be something there to learn. Also for the record, I said forum and not specifically this thread about seeing more acceptance, maybe not. I thought homebrew dogma was hard to let go of but it seems hurt feelings more so.

[hopfenundmalz]

He was ahead of his time and considering humans natural resistance to change, it makes sense that things were contentious. Anyway it’s nice to see much of that material becoming more accepted on this forum.

To be clear, it had nothing to do with "resistance to change" and everything to do with his attitude that "You are stupid if you don't brew the same way I do" and then the argumentative crap that it spawned. If you don't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I'm all for those people who want to LoDo brew ... that doesn't mean people are "stupid" if they choose not to.

Furthermore, nothing that has been discussed in this thread is new or discovered via LoDo brewing techniques. The dark malt antioxidant properties go back to Papazian's first book for crying out loud.

I was also here when all that went down but my experience of it was, obviously, radically different. Instead of taking offense by what he said, I decided there might be something there to learn. Also for the record, I said forum and not specifically this thread about seeing more acceptance, maybe not. I thought homebrew dogma was hard to let go of but it seems hurt feelings more so.

There are some really smart people in my club, and they don't  see a reason to change the waybthey do brewing.  Most of them don't  make beers with base malt much under 3L, some might be MO all the time. They aren't  interested  in Helles or Pilsner.

[majorvices]

Look, Bilsch - I understand where you are coming from. It's a shame that you don't take it from a moderator's perspective. Where are we supposed to draw the line when forum rules are broken? Such as below...

3. Be respectful of the questions and comments of others. It is OK to disagree with someone, but do so with respect. Keep the AHA forum friendly and encouraging of everyone's participation.


How many chances do we give a person who constantly breaks forum rules over and over again with blatant disrespect? Not that it should matter, but many of us (as in Mods and Admins) have been "friends" with whom you are talking about for years on other forums which is the only reason that attitude was put up with for so long. But eventually enough is enough.

I'll say it again, it wasn't ever the information. It was always the delivery. There is nothing else that needs to be discussed about that topic. If you feel the need to discuss further please feel free to PM one of us.

[Bilsch]

Fair enough. Getting back to the topic of improving beer shelf life.. The method the macro's use, is to preserve malt antioxidants all the way through the brewing process and into the packaging and reduce/eliminate inclusion of staling compounds.
IMO the best way for us to do that is: 1) low oxygen on the hot side 2) Get your fining/settling game in order and only transfer clear beer to the fermentor 3) Fast healthy ferments 4) Pristine cold side practices including naturally carbonating in the package.

[denny]

Fair enough. Getting back to the topic of improving beer shelf life.. The method the macro's use, is to preserve malt antioxidants all the way through the brewing process and into the packaging and reduce/eliminate inclusion of staling compounds.
IMO the best way for us to do that is: 1) low oxygen on the hot side 2) Get your fining/settling game in order and only transfer clear beer to the fermentor 3) Fast healthy ferments 4) Pristine cold side practices including naturally carbonating in the package.

Great advice...assuming we all have the same goals and make the same beer styles.

[mainebrewer]

Fair enough. Getting back to the topic of improving beer shelf life.. The method the macro's use, is to preserve malt antioxidants all the way through the brewing process and into the packaging and reduce/eliminate inclusion of staling compounds.
IMO the best way for us to do that is: 1) low oxygen on the hot side 2) Get your fining/settling game in order and only transfer clear beer to the fermentor 3) Fast healthy ferments 4) Pristine cold side practices including naturally carbonating in the package.

Great advice...assuming we all have the same goals and make the same beer styles.

Bilsch's suggestions don't just apply to one beer style or just pale beer styles. True, dark style beer does seem less affected by oxidation but all beer benefits from doing these things.

[beersk]

Fair enough. Getting back to the topic of improving beer shelf life.. The method the macro's use, is to preserve malt antioxidants all the way through the brewing process and into the packaging and reduce/eliminate inclusion of staling compounds.
IMO the best way for us to do that is: 1) low oxygen on the hot side 2) Get your fining/settling game in order and only transfer clear beer to the fermentor 3) Fast healthy ferments 4) Pristine cold side practices including naturally carbonating in the package.

Great advice...assuming we all have the same goals and make the same beer styles.

I think beer style has nothing to do with it. That's just good practice for extending beer shelf life. Period. But not everyone has the motivation nor the equipment to do all of that - is perhaps what you meant to say. I drink all of my beers within about 2-3 months of brewing them, so I'm never worried about my beer going stale.

And I agree with Keith, a lot of it was the delivery of the information, not the information itself. And I, admittedly, was part of the problem. Looking back I feel pretty damn ashamed of myself.

[BrewBama]

Maybe I’m wrong here, but from what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer.

The Low O2 guys (I believe) have taken the approach to reduce/eliminate dissolved O2 in the mash thru use of sulfur based compounds, mash caps, etc.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, (which is kinda hard to do since it surrounds us), I think time is better spent focusing on the reaction.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the reaction of mash oxidation.

In my opinion, you have a better chance on winning the reaction battle than the O2 battle short of a room filled with inert gas and wearing a space suit.

In the food world FDA approved EDTA does this. I think Brewtan B does as well (maybe Joe can confirm). I’ll report back on what Joe says from the note I sent him.

I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the mash after mash in, wait a minute, then add 1 tsp CaCl or Gypsum directly to the mash and focus on pH. The wait is so the Brewtan B is not binding with my Calcium (if that’s a thing).

After the mash danger is over, transferring hot wort quietly to the BK, boiling, cooling quickly and pitching plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete, and keeping the beer cold are all considered by some to be best practices.

Even closed xfer we pick up O2. It’s just inevitable and we do what we can. The rest is just the price of doing business.

Edit: Given that there is still yeast in suspension when I transfer, I hope I am using the yeast to my advantage by having them consume any O2 I inadvertently pickup.

[fredthecat]

Maybe I’m wrong here, but from what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer.

The Low O2 guys (I believe) have taken the approach to reduce/eliminate dissolved O2 in the mash thru use of sulfur based compounds, mash caps, etc.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, (which is kinda hard to do since it surrounds us), I think time is better spent focusing on the reaction.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the reaction of mash oxidation.

In my opinion, you have a better chance on winning the reaction battle than the O2 battle short of a room filled with inert gas and wearing a space suit.

In the food world FDA approved EDTA does this. I think Brewtan B does as well (maybe Joe can confirm). I’ll report back on what Joe says from the note I sent him.

I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the mash after mash in, wait a minute, then add 1 tsp CaCl or Gypsum directly to the mash and focus on pH. The wait is so the Brewtan B is not binding with my Calcium (if that’s a thing).

After the mash danger is over, transferring hot wort quietly to the BK, boiling, cooling quickly and pitching plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete, and keeping the beer cold are all considered by some to be best practices.

Even closed xfer we pick up O2. It’s just inevitable and we do what we can. The rest is just the price of doing business.

i really like the sound of this actually. yes, it is true they had some good theories and practice about methods to reduce hotside o2 with minimal effort.


is there a dedicated thread to this that does not include snarky remarks? if not would be great to make one on: additive methods to reduce hot side O2

[BrewBama]

Most of my info comes from various sources. Definitely not my work. ...but a combination of reading, videos, forum discussions, etc. I compile in notes and when shelf life comes up I edit. Those thoughts are the latest regurgitations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bilsch]

The Low O2 guys (I believe) have taken the approach to reduce/eliminate dissolved O2 in the mash thru use of sulfur based compounds, mash caps, etc.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, (which is kinda hard to do since it surrounds us), I think time is better spent focusing on the reaction.

Metal chelators like Brewtan B are fine but it's better to reduce them by using RO and changing your system to all stainless.

Essentially eliminating O2 in the mash actually isn't difficult. De-aerating the mash water, using an active scavenger like metabisulfite and mashcaps are quite effective as witnessed by in process DO meters that myself and a lot of other low oxygen guys have installed in our systems. I will see 0.00ppm O2 in the strike water at the underlet with a slight rise to 0.06ppm from oxygen dissolved into the grain itself but the meta will usually bring that right back to 0.00ppm within minutes and this will hold right the way through the mash and into the boil.

Low oxygen on the hot side is just one of those things that seems impossible until you do it and learn the tricks.