Author Topic: Hop Heaven  (Read 3215 times)

Offline neuse

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2021, 03:24:14 PM »
There are several posts about vacuum sealing the hops at home, apparently with good success. Are these bags oxygen bags true oxygen barriers, or it that really not necessary?

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2021, 03:32:04 PM »
There are several posts about vacuum sealing the hops at home, apparently with good success. Are these bags oxygen bags true oxygen barriers, or it that really not necessary?
I have to assume that they truly are oxygen barriers.  When you seal a bag of hops, the bag is sucked clean of O2 (or at least as much as the sealer can) and the bag itself is hard as a rock.  I have had "bad seals" where it looked good at first but I go back into the freezer the next day and the bag is soft now so O2 got in where the seal was.  But if the seal is good the bag remains very hard and packed.  If O2 were getting in through the bag material I assume the package would be soft in a short time.  I hear you though:  Many packages are more foil-like O2 barrier material which seems like it would be better but the plastic bag material for the sealers seems good to me. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2021, 04:17:21 PM »
There are several posts about vacuum sealing the hops at home, apparently with good success. Are these bags oxygen bags true oxygen barriers, or it that really not necessary?
I have to assume that they truly are oxygen barriers.  When you seal a bag of hops, the bag is sucked clean of O2 (or at least as much as the sealer can) and the bag itself is hard as a rock.  I have had "bad seals" where it looked good at first but I go back into the freezer the next day and the bag is soft now so O2 got in where the seal was.  But if the seal is good the bag remains very hard and packed.  If O2 were getting in through the bag material I assume the package would be soft in a short time.  I hear you though:  Many packages are more foil-like O2 barrier material which seems like it would be better but the plastic bag material for the sealers seems good to me.


Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!






« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 04:20:19 PM by hmbrw4life »
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Offline neuse

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2021, 05:54:09 PM »
There are several posts about vacuum sealing the hops at home, apparently with good success. Are these bags oxygen bags true oxygen barriers, or it that really not necessary?
I have to assume that they truly are oxygen barriers.  When you seal a bag of hops, the bag is sucked clean of O2 (or at least as much as the sealer can) and the bag itself is hard as a rock.  I have had "bad seals" where it looked good at first but I go back into the freezer the next day and the bag is soft now so O2 got in where the seal was.  But if the seal is good the bag remains very hard and packed.  If O2 were getting in through the bag material I assume the package would be soft in a short time.  I hear you though:  Many packages are more foil-like O2 barrier material which seems like it would be better but the plastic bag material for the sealers seems good to me.


Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!







My solution to this has been buying hops vacuum sealed in 2 oz foil bags with a zip lock (Yakima Valley Hops). For finishing hops, I use a whole bag. For bittering hops, I squeeze as much air out as I can and reseal. If for some reason I don't don't use a whole bag of finishing hops, it becomes bittering hops. It costs a little more, but I feel better about it.

I asked about the oxygen barrier home vacuum seal bags because this would be a win-win, but in the absence of that, I'll probably continue with my current method. I think the foil bags are very good, but if I find out different I might change.

Very good info about the various materials by the way - thanks.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2021, 06:44:28 PM »
Anecdotally, my Hop Heaven hops last a very long time stored in vacuum sealed bags in the freezer.  I use them for bitterness, flavor, and aroma. I open take out the hops I need and reseal.

Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2021, 07:01:34 PM »
There are several posts about vacuum sealing the hops at home, apparently with good success. Are these bags oxygen bags true oxygen barriers, or it that really not necessary?
I have to assume that they truly are oxygen barriers.  When you seal a bag of hops, the bag is sucked clean of O2 (or at least as much as the sealer can) and the bag itself is hard as a rock.  I have had "bad seals" where it looked good at first but I go back into the freezer the next day and the bag is soft now so O2 got in where the seal was.  But if the seal is good the bag remains very hard and packed.  If O2 were getting in through the bag material I assume the package would be soft in a short time.  I hear you though:  Many packages are more foil-like O2 barrier material which seems like it would be better but the plastic bag material for the sealers seems good to me.


Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!







My solution to this has been buying hops vacuum sealed in 2 oz foil bags with a zip lock (Yakima Valley Hops). For finishing hops, I use a whole bag. For bittering hops, I squeeze as much air out as I can and reseal. If for some reason I don't don't use a whole bag of finishing hops, it becomes bittering hops. It costs a little more, but I feel better about it.

I asked about the oxygen barrier home vacuum seal bags because this would be a win-win, but in the absence of that, I'll probably continue with my current method. I think the foil bags are very good, but if I find out different I might change.

Very good info about the various materials by the way - thanks.

NP, and good on you. I know some breweries that will only use new un-opened bags for late/dry hops and swear by it. That pesky oxygen again!
Science functions when theory correctly predicts the results of experiments.
Six Sigma in a former life. Retired in the current life.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2021, 07:52:27 PM »
Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!
Do we know what these numbers mean in terms of allowing O2 into the bags?  Clearly mylar appears to be better but if the Polyethylene bags appear to still be tight and hard as a rock weeks after they were sealed, how much damage is being done to the hops by the O2 getting into the bag?  There appears to be no evidence that O2 is creeping in just based on how the bag feels but I don't pretend to know any more than that. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline denny

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2021, 08:25:34 PM »
Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!
Do we know what these numbers mean in terms of allowing O2 into the bags?  Clearly mylar appears to be better but if the Polyethylene bags appear to still be tight and hard as a rock weeks after they were sealed, how much damage is being done to the hops by the O2 getting into the bag?  There appears to be no evidence that O2 is creeping in just based on how the bag feels but I don't pretend to know any more than that.

Reality often astonishes theory.
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Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2021, 09:20:23 PM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.

Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:23:02 PM by Fire Rooster »

Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2021, 09:24:03 PM »
Ahh, some good old Fick's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fick%27s_laws_of_diffusion).

Anything can be an oxygen barrier, just being a barrier doesn't mean it stops permeability, solubility and diffusivity, only (possibly)slows it.

In this case, food saver bags are made from Polyethylene (and some nylon).
The oxygen permeability of it is: 2325 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)
Mylar on the other hand, permeability is 16 (cc 25μ/m2/24h)

So that means food saver bags are 150 times more permeable than mylar, neither of which however, are impermeable.

Once harvested, hops (like all agricultural products) have a declining state, oxygen starts the reactions, and in this starts the degradation of hop polyphenols, and acids. This is why we have a index for hop aging degradation.

Temperature greatly helps( or hurts) this due the slower reaction rates based on (colder)temperature, using some kind of barrier also greatly helps.

Most people at home us vac seal bags due to usability, most commercial hop solutions come in some type of mylar/N2 purged bag due to shelf life, and product quality.

Life is always a trade-off

Use what you got, anything is better than nothing!
Do we know what these numbers mean in terms of allowing O2 into the bags?  Clearly mylar appears to be better but if the Polyethylene bags appear to still be tight and hard as a rock weeks after they were sealed, how much damage is being done to the hops by the O2 getting into the bag?  There appears to be no evidence that O2 is creeping in just based on how the bag feels but I don't pretend to know any more than that.

Reality often astonishes theory.

Hrrmm..

Well bottles and kegs are sealed tight too, and we all know that matters little.

The question is not whether it happens (it does) as there are quantifiable measurements to prove it. So that blows that analogy.

The only real answer would be to test a commercial package, vs a vac seal package via HLPC and sensory, at timed alloted intervals and see what the results are. Which would be time consuming, and most likely not worth it, but its the proper answer.

Or one can chose to do what they have always done, and get what they always get (good, bad, indifferent). Thats the beauty of life, choices.

Don't get me wrong, I myself, use vacuum bags for hop storage for its ease of usability. But I do only aroma hop with fresh bags like neuse, as its talked about a lot in professional circles and easy and cheap on the HB scale. Many pro's would also probably tell you to get your cold side impeccable before even thinking of worrying about it. But as a hobby, in this day and age its pretty easy and fairly inexpensive to shop the freshest ingredients.

That being said, it still doesn't change the fact there are measured better ways to do it. Choices.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:26:01 PM by hmbrw4life »
Science functions when theory correctly predicts the results of experiments.
Six Sigma in a former life. Retired in the current life.

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2021, 03:38:58 PM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.

Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.

thats what I do. every year my hop order feels like christmas. His Liberty hops this year are amazing. I've burned through a pound in no time flat.

Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2021, 04:54:24 PM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.

Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
I think I'll try Liberty next time ordering.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.

thats what I do. every year my hop order feels like christmas. His Liberty hops this year are amazing. I've burned through a pound in no time flat.

It's nice knowing year of hops.
Ordering Liberty next time.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 06:25:04 PM by Fire Rooster »

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2021, 09:31:25 PM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.

Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
I think I'll try Liberty next time ordering.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.

thats what I do. every year my hop order feels like christmas. His Liberty hops this year are amazing. I've burned through a pound in no time flat.

It's nice knowing year of hops.
Ordering Liberty next time.
and try the edelweiss blend if you havent already

Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2021, 08:16:48 AM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.


Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
I think I'll try Liberty next time ordering.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.

thats what I do. every year my hop order feels like christmas. His Liberty hops this year are amazing. I've burned through a pound in no time flat.

It's nice knowing year of hops.
Ordering Liberty next time.
and try the edelweiss blend if you havent already

I haven't tried Liberty or Edelweiss.
Will try both, and order in fall.

Thanks

Offline Fire Rooster

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Re: Hop Heaven
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2021, 05:42:59 PM »
Ordered (Hop Heaven) 8oz Magnum 2020 pellets for bittering, and 1 lb Mt Hood 2020
pellets for flavor/aroma.  Would use leaf hops if I had a larger kettle with a false
bottom, using spent hops as a filter bed.  Also Ordered small vacuum sealer bags to
freeze/fridge small amounts.


Received hops today, shipping time was very reasonable.
I think I'll try Liberty next time ordering.
They are double vacuum sealed and look nice.
Awaiting new vacuum sealing machine to split into small portions then freeze.
Old vacuum sealer was cheap and crappy.
I think every fall I'll be ordering my hops from Hop Heaven to get the new years batch.

thats what I do. every year my hop order feels like christmas. His Liberty hops this year are amazing. I've burned through a pound in no time flat.

It's nice knowing year of hops.
Ordering Liberty next time.
and try the edelweiss blend if you havent already

I haven't tried Liberty or Edelweiss.
Will try both, and order in fall.

Thanks

It just dawned on me, Edelweiss is from the movie Sound of Music.
It's also a white flower that grows in the Alps.
The W pronounced as a V threw me off, or I'm just old and slow.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 06:12:19 PM by Fire Rooster »