Author Topic: Vienna lager  (Read 3359 times)

Offline Oiscout

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2021, 04:48:52 PM »
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't consider it a style that "disappeared" necessarily. I think a Viena Lager that is "dark and malty" probably wouldn't do very well in a BJCP sanctioned competition. Just because a bunch of breweries are spinning their versions of the style doesn't mean they are really what anyone would recognize as a Vienna Lager. In fact, what you are speaking of really sounds more like a Bier de Garde than a Vienna Lager.

Vienna Lager never really died, BTW, it just moved to Mexico.
Like punk rock, it just got old and started home brewing

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Online Village Taphouse

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2021, 07:14:00 PM »
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't consider it a style that "disappeared" necessarily. I think a Viena Lager that is "dark and malty" probably wouldn't do very well in a BJCP sanctioned competition. Just because a bunch of breweries are spinning their versions of the style doesn't mean they are really what anyone would recognize as a Vienna Lager. In fact, what you are speaking of really sounds more like a Bier de Garde than a Vienna Lager.

Vienna Lager never really died, BTW, it just moved to Mexico.
I agree... a brewer may call it a Vienna Lager because it contains Vienna malt.  True Vienna Lager was a really big thing in central Europe and it did sort of disappear from there when Pilsner got popular.  I love that German and Austrian brewers brought the style to Mexico and it still thrives today.  I am down with Negra Modelo, Dos Equis Amber, Indio, Bohemia Dark, etc.  I like that style.  But when I went to Vienna in search of real Vienna Lager, many people had no idea what I was talking about.  I would ask about it and they would say, "Oh yes, we have a lot of lager here in Vienna!"... "No, Vienna Lager.  Do you know where I could get some?" and they would look at me funny.  I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good.  I assume that craft brewers helped to bring it back at least in some part and as homebrewers we can always tilt the recipe the way we like or make someone else's recipe which is always fun. 

Salm Brau Vienna...

« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 07:17:47 PM by Village Taphouse »
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2021, 09:29:35 PM »
Note: the above beer was a two hour boil with the hop schedule starting after the first hour.


craft amber lager.

though im glad i can see a recipe of yours. thats a low IBU? (guesstimating) 15 IBU?

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2021, 09:32:17 PM »
I have never ben to Vienna so I shall concede!

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2021, 09:46:11 PM »
ottakringer, a brewery in vienna makes a "wiener original" lager that is my ideal traditional vienna. its tasteful but designed for a session. dry but not bitter, no corniness at all.

@villagetaphouse it probably has a particular name like "dark vienna" or "dark lager"

im checking https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/austbrew.htm#1516

it looks like there is a tendency to call vienna lagers as "______ rot" ein rotes lagerbier. but that also doesnt come up with an adequate answer on google.

this is a good line of inquiry.. ?

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2021, 10:05:14 PM »
ottakringer, a brewery in vienna makes a "wiener original" lager that is my ideal traditional vienna. its tasteful but designed for a session. dry but not bitter, no corniness at all.

@villagetaphouse it probably has a particular name like "dark vienna" or "dark lager"

im checking https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/austbrew.htm#1516

it looks like there is a tendency to call vienna lagers as "______ rot" ein rotes lagerbier. but that also doesnt come up with an adequate answer on google.

this is a good line of inquiry.. ?
Ottakringer makes some very good beer.  I never found their version of a Vienna Lager but their helles and their "Goldfassl" was very good.  The recipe I used originally for Vienna Lager (from Jamil Z.) was dark and malty and for my tastes it was a little too close to a dunkel.  I was looking for a way to make them a little more distinct from each other.  Using a different yeast was a good start but at some point I thought I would cut back on the carafa in the Vienna and just turn up the hops slightly.  The hop schedule is almost the same... bitter to 20 IBUs or so and add an ounce of something noble for 10 minutes.  It's fun to dive into the history of it and also dissect the various ways to make it. 
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2021, 10:57:21 PM »
I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good. 

It looks delicious.  What would you guess it's color to be on either the SRM or EBC scale?

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2021, 11:03:27 PM »
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2021, 11:29:48 PM »
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

Yeah anyone who has brewed a 100% Vienna basemalt beer will notice quickly how pale it is. The "Pilsner" book by Tom Acitelli is excellent and describes how pilsner evolved from the smokeless kilns used in England and the lager yeast smuggled across the German border. Great book.

Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2021, 11:31:51 PM »
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

I think Vienna Lager is similar in SRM to a Fest Bier, or even lighter. Darker than your standard Pils. I just brewed 10 gallons, with all Vienna malt. It is a nice golden color, a darker gold. Not red.
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2021, 08:00:41 AM »
Great Lakes Brewing Company's 'Eliot Ness' Lager has won multiple awards in the 'Vienna Lager' category, and I'd guess its SRM color at about 14.  But at some juncture Great Lakes stopped referring to it as a Vienna Lager, and they now label it as merely an Amber Lager.  They have also reduced the IBU's from 35 to 27. And to my knowledge it is no longer raking in awards. The last few bottled samples of it that I've tried have been nothing to write home about.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 08:06:59 AM by Silver_Is_Money »

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2021, 02:12:10 PM »
I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good. 

It looks delicious.  What would you guess it's color to be on either the SRM or EBC scale?
That one looks to be around 15 SRM give or take.  The Jamil recipe looks very similar to that... a good amount of Carafa Special III.  All of this talk is what I was referring to originally:  The style seems wide open.  Not that it was meant to be that way but numerous commercial brewers and plenty of homebrewers have gone off in various directions with this style (which applies to other styles too, I get that part).  When I mentioned earlier that it disappeared for a while, I am talking about right around the turn of the century... 1900 to about 1915.  After being really popular, it fell out of favor for a very long time to the point that it was not seen in central Europe at all.  It took a long time to be resurrected and craft brewers may be responsible for that.  This one I brewed last week is probably more like SRM 7-8.  If I think it needs a small shot of Carafa III (maybe a half-ounce in 5 gallons?) I can always do that the next time.  Cheers Beerheads.
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Offline Oiscout

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2021, 02:25:35 PM »
Great Lakes Brewing Company's 'Eliot Ness' Lager has won multiple awards in the 'Vienna Lager' category, and I'd guess its SRM color at about 14.  But at some juncture Great Lakes stopped referring to it as a Vienna Lager, and they now label it as merely an Amber Lager.  They have also reduced the IBU's from 35 to 27. And to my knowledge it is no longer raking in awards. The last few bottled samples of it that I've tried have been nothing to write home about.
It's been a long time since I had any of their beer, I wasn't impressed but I'm willing to give them a try again

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Offline roger

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2021, 03:27:20 PM »
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

According to the booklet titled "Vienna Marzen Oktoberfest" by George & Laurie Fix from 1991, the color range for Dreher's Vienna was estimated at 8-10L. One of his brewers brought the style to Mexico/Texas and increased the color to 10-12L by using a small amount of black malt. They compared the color of Bass Ale from 1991, which they listed at 10L.

I was in Vienna in 2010, and could not find an example of any non-Heineken beer near our hotel. Only there two nights, with a lot to see, so I didn't have a lot of time to venture out on my own. This is a historically wine-drinking area, which held me over until I got to Munich. ;)

What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.
Roger

Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2021, 03:32:45 PM »
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

Krennmair's books are excellent! Highly recommended for anyone really wanting to delve into the origins of the style, and they're pretty readable, too.

I riffed off the historical Vienna lager recipe from the book recently, and enjoyed the 100% Vienna malt brew. I used Weyermann's Vienna malt, as I've found it to be consistently flavorful and enjoyable to my palate.
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