Author Topic: Vienna lager  (Read 3295 times)

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2021, 03:43:12 PM »
The BJCP style guide for Vienna needs to be overhauled.  It is based on Negra Modelo, but that beer is closer to Munich Dunkel in color.  One should not have to add black malt to a Vienna grist like I did to meet the SRM requirement for Vienna.  Technically, it should be possible to brew a Vienna with 100% Vienna malt and have it be within style.

Offline BrewBama

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Vienna lager
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2021, 04:09:52 PM »
I think too much emphasis is put on the American home brewers style guidelines. I don’t think it’s meant to box home brewers in as much as it has. It’s more important to make something that tastes good, not something that matches a certain number.

I agree 100% Vienna malt (~3-4 SRM) should at least be the starting color for a Vienna Lager. Even Denny’s favorite Mecca Grade’s Vanora (which is a pretty dark Vienna style malt at 7 SRM) doesn’t meet the color threshold at 100% without exceeding the OG ceiling without utilizing other darkening techniques (boil down 1st runnings, etc).


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« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 04:31:37 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2021, 04:54:25 PM »
I think too much emphasis is put on the American home brewers style guidelines. I don’t think it’s meant to box home brewers in as much as it has. It’s more important to make something that tastes good, not something that matches a certain number.

I agree 100% Vienna malt (~3-4 SRM) should at least be the starting color for a Vienna Lager. Even Denny’s favorite Mecca Grade’s Vanora (which is a pretty dark Vienna style malt at 7 SRM) doesn’t meet the color threshold at 100% without exceeding the OG ceiling without utilizing other darkening techniques (boil down 1st runnings, etc).


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This is one of the pitfalls of brewing software, too. I've gotten better about this over the years, but it's easy to fall into the trap of checking whether the SRM checkmark is lit up when plugging in a recipe into your software. And just about all the German Lagers have SRM values that are much higher than they taste. Vienna, Märzen, Dunkel, and sometimes even Pilsner all come out lighter than the range I see listed without color adjustment.

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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2021, 08:11:54 PM »
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now. 
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Offline BrewBama

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Vienna lager
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2021, 09:10:36 PM »
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now.
+1 They say it’s a Dunkel on their website:

« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 10:44:35 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2021, 09:14:08 PM »
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now.

Destined to become an extinct style, it took some political upheaval halfway across the world to serendipitously revive the Vienna style in a newly-imagined, adjunct-laden take on the style commonly known as Mexican lager.

By the late 19th century, immigration to the United States had grown significantly with Europeans drawn by the freedoms and opportunities offered in the New World. The decline of the Austrian empire and its rebirth as a dual monarchy consisting of co-equal Austrian and Hungarian states in 1867 contributed to an exodus of people from the region. The French Intervention in Mexico resulted in the Archduke of Austria, Ferdinand Maximilian Josef Habsburg, being installed as emperor and opened a second front of Austrian immigrants to Central America.

Some of those leaving Austria were the very brewers that contributed to the history of Vienna-style beers. Many settled in the American Southwest and Mexico looking to employ their brewing traditions in an area devoid of an established brewing culture as found in the more developed areas of the United States East Coast. These immigrant brewers attempted to recreate their beloved beer styles in this new, warmer climate but without much success. Lacking an abundance of natural ice, especially in the Southwest United States, lager beer quality suffered until refrigeration became more widespread in the 1880s.

Santiago Graf, an immigrant brewer, founded a brewery in the hills of Toluca, Mexico. Realizing the futility of employing lager brewing practices, he settled on creating beers with top fermenting ale yeast. This process resulted in the first quality beers produced in the southwest. Eventually, Graf invested in an absorption ice machine that he imported from Germany to focus on creating lagers, including a reinterpretation of the Vienna style, in the New World.

Much like Anton Dreher, Graf believed in using the finest quality ingredients in the production of his beers. Forgoing American hops due to their reputation for harsh flavors, he imported his hops and malts from Europe. His use of high-quality ingredients coupled with modern refrigeration yielded lagers that Mexico had not experienced before and they quickly became popular.

Graf is credited with incorporating a small amount of black malt in his Vienna lagers, resulting in a version on the darker end of the style’s spectrum. Modern day Mexican versions have become lighter and sweeter due to the increased use of adjuncts in the grist. It is likely adjunct usage was incorporated into these modern versions as both a cost savings and method to increase drinkability.

Popular Mexican examples include Negra Modelo Lager, Victoria, and Dos Equis Amber.

https://byo.com/article/vienna-lager-brewing-the-austrian-beer-style-rescued-by-mexico/
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 09:17:06 PM by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2021, 09:29:33 PM »
When Euro brewers got to Mexico they started making the beers that were popular in central Europe... pilsner and Vienna Lager.  But a proper pilsner is hopped pretty high and the hops did not agree with the spicy cuisines of Mexico so the brewers tempered the hops a bit.  The relatively low hopping rate of the Vienna was a perfect complement to Mexico's food and that's a reason why it has persevered there.  It works well with food.  Also, the adjuncts (corn generally... it's cheap and locally available) lend a smidge of sweetness to the beer which also works nicely with chiles and other spicy foods. 
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2021, 11:31:39 PM »
+1 on Andreas Krennmair - Denny and Drew interviewed him a couple years back and I bought his Historic and German Beers for the Homebrewer book based on that interview (I am pretty sure it was their interview - but it was a while back)....
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Offline Oiscout

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2021, 01:35:26 AM »
I'm taking another stab at a lager. I absolutely love this style

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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2021, 03:41:15 AM »
ok, now we're really getting somewhere here.

yes, i heard an hour long interview with andreas krennmeier on the history of beer in vienna and anton dreher. yup, vienna was historically a wine drinking region (cider too? i cant recall). very interesting story at a time of the beginning of mass use of thermometres, hydrometres, understanding yeast etc.

yup, the ottakringer vienna is something enjoyable to sip, yet very sessionable. SRM is between 7 to 10 i'd say.

vienna malt might be something to think about? sacc - in the book did they mention the origin of it?

it's entirely possible that vienna lagers could have been 100% vienna malt.


Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2021, 12:57:17 PM »
ok, now we're really getting somewhere here.

yes, i heard an hour long interview with andreas krennmeier on the history of beer in vienna and anton dreher. yup, vienna was historically a wine drinking region (cider too? i cant recall). very interesting story at a time of the beginning of mass use of thermometres, hydrometres, understanding yeast etc.

yup, the ottakringer vienna is something enjoyable to sip, yet very sessionable. SRM is between 7 to 10 i'd say.

vienna malt might be something to think about? sacc - in the book did they mention the origin of it?

it's entirely possible that vienna lagers could have been 100% vienna malt.

A nice, easy drinking, very sessionable Vienna Lager is on tap in my bar. Got the basic recipe when reading about Vienna Malt, where they said it is acceptable to use 100% in the grain bill. So that’s what I did. The simplicity is what makes this a great beer.
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Offline roger

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2021, 01:05:49 PM »
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.
Roger

Offline majorvices

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2021, 02:34:30 PM »
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2021, 02:43:51 PM »
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2021, 02:46:37 PM »
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!

I can cook and I like where I live. Plus, I'm pickier than most.