Author Topic: Vienna lager  (Read 3674 times)

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2021, 08:43:08 AM »
To my eyes, Pilsner Urquell is about 5.5 SRM.  If this beer caused a revolution which shocked the world as the worlds first light Lager, and Vienna Lager preceded it by several decades, then whatever color Vienna Lager initially was, it was  likely to be appreciably darker than 5.5 SRM.

5.5 SRM is about 10.8 EBC and 4.6 Lovibond.

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2021, 12:29:56 PM »
I probably never used anything besides Best and Weyermann Vienna Malts - but some of the Vienna malts ya'll are talking about are kilned more toward Weyermann and Best Munich malts

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2021, 02:43:21 PM »
I probably never used anything besides Best and Weyermann Vienna Malts - but some of the Vienna malts ya'll are talking about are kilned more toward Weyermann and Best Munich malts

Many specs on malt are driven by variety. There are several MBAA podcasts where Joe Hedrich (SP) is interviewed. In one he talks about Kohlbach Index, and how for one NA variety it was not over modified at 50, that was what it had to be to work for that malt variety.

I mentioned the Mecca Grade Vienna. They use Full Pint as their variety. They may go darker for that malt, or their process, or to get the flavor they want.

I found this site this morning. These days are in EBC (the Crisp Pale Ale looks to be Lovibond). The conversion is
Lovibond=(EBC+1.2)/2.65 if anyone hasn't run across that yet. A Vienna lager made with Ireks or Best Vienna malt should be darker than one made with Weyermann Vienna malt. It would be a fun experiment, or just mash a small quantity of each and evaluate the color.

https://www.geterbrewed.com/malt-substitution-guide/
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Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2021, 02:54:59 PM »
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...
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Offline narvin

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2021, 03:30:37 PM »
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...

It could be the lighting but it looks closer to Sierra Nevada Pale Ale which I put (based on imprecise homebrew calculations) at maybe 6-7 SRM.

Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2021, 05:31:57 PM »
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...

It could be the lighting but it looks closer to Sierra Nevada Pale Ale which I put (based on imprecise homebrew calculations) at maybe 6-7 SRM.

I would guess 7 SRM is the ballpark for this beer. The flash actually washed the color out a bit.

Here is some good info...and I'm sure most of you knew this already -

European Beer Color (EBC)

The EBC method (European Beer Color) is the European equivalent standard to the SRM scale in Europe. Both SRM and EBC use very similar laboratory techniques to measure the beer color. Because of this similarity, SRM and EBC have an exact linear relationship to their values. In fact, the EBC value for a given grain is always a little less than double the SRM value.

In practice the EBC color is approximately 1.97 times the SRM color.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2021, 05:48:21 PM »
I have always regarded the numerics as less helpful than a color descriptor range.  I appreciate that you can theoretically dial down to a specific number that is scientifically subject to analysis and result, but I always go back to amber (light, medium or dark), copper (same gradient), brown (same gradient), because that gives me a reference that I don't have to go to a conversion scale to appreciate. 

And as to 100% Vienna - I have done it and it can be quite good, but it can be fairly one-dimensional, too.  I like a little Munich in mine....

Cheers to an interesting discussion.  Vienna will have to be worked into my brewing schedule now.
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Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2021, 06:18:03 PM »
I have always regarded the numerics as less helpful than a color descriptor range.  I appreciate that you can theoretically dial down to a specific number that is scientifically subject to analysis and result, but I always go back to amber (light, medium or dark), copper (same gradient), brown (same gradient), because that gives me a reference that I don't have to go to a conversion scale to appreciate. 

And as to 100% Vienna - I have done it and it can be quite good, but it can be fairly one-dimensional, too.  I like a little Munich in mine....

Cheers to an interesting discussion.  Vienna will have to be worked into my brewing schedule now.

Yes, I agree. My next go at this will incorporate some Munich. This beer is actually quite good. Extremely clean, clear, with a hint of the Tettnang hops. The W-34/70 notes come through as well.

In other words, you might describe this as one dimensional. But I actually like one dimensional beers.

A friend gave me a Stout the other day. Very heavy vanilla, chocolate and coconut flavors. Multi-dimensional. Not my pint of beer.
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Offline Oiscout

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2021, 06:21:26 PM »
IIRC ireks used to make some pretty popular LME?

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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2021, 06:22:09 PM »
I looked up some Vienna Lager pics from the past few years.  The color varies but some of that was intentional as I was trying to differentiate between my Vienna and my Dunkel.











I think all of these had some amount of carafa special III in them.  I have one in the fermenter now that used a pound of CaraMunich 1 (mentioned earlier) and it will be more pale but still with some amount of color making it darker than SRM 5 or so.
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Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2021, 06:26:02 PM »
I looked up some Vienna Lager pics from the past few years.  The color varies but some of that was intentional as I was trying to differentiate between my Vienna and my Dunkel.











I think all of these had some amount of carafa special III in them.  I have one in the fermenter now that used a pound of CaraMunich 1 (mentioned earlier) and it will be more pale but still with some amount of color making it darker than SRM 5 or so.

That first photo looks real close to mine on tap now. Great looking beers. Nice back yard!
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Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2021, 06:27:48 PM »
More good info:

Vienna Malt

The key ingredient in a Vienna-style lager is Vienna malt. This should make up the majority — if not the entirety — of your grain bill. Vienna malt is a 2-row base malt that is darker than most pale malts, but lighter than Munich malt. Pilsner malts, and generic 2-row pale malts, usually fall around 1.5–2 degrees Lovibond (°L). English pale ale malts usually rate around 3 °L. Vienna malt is typically rated around 3–6 °L, while light Munich malts rate from 8–12 °L and dark Munich falls around 20 °L. Homebrewers tend to think of Vienna as a extra-light version of Munich malt.

A beer made from all Vienna malt has a malty character, with a slight biscuity or nutty aspect, but that description really doesn’t do it justice. Just as Munich malt has a distinctive character that you can recognize once you’ve brewed with it, so does Vienna. Vienna and Munich have a similar malty/grainy flavor, but you can tell them apart without much trouble if you’ve brewed with them a couple times. Weyermann, Durst and Briess make Vienna malts that are available to homebrewers. Weyermann also makes a Vienna malt extract, called Vienna Red, that is made with Vienna malt, Pilsner malt and melanoidin malt.

Recipe Formulation

When formulating your Vienna recipe, keep it simple. Although I have outlined a few options to accent the Vienna malt, all are optional. And personally, I don’t think Vienna lagers benefit from adding a bit of this and pinch of that for complexity — start with a base of Vienna malt and maybe add one or at most two other grains to tweak the flavor.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:30:49 PM by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2021, 06:46:26 PM »
I have always considered the Vienna Lager style to be a contrast to the Marzen style - being less malty, more bitter, more crisp, lower ABV and easier drinking as a result.  The BJCP guidelines state it better than I can:

"Style Comparison: Lighter malt character, slightly less body,
and slightly more bitter in the balance than a Märzen, yet with
many of the same malt-derived flavors. The malt character is
similar to a Märzen, but less intense and more balanced. Lower
in alcohol than Märzen or Festbier. Less rich, less malty and
less hop-centered compared to Czech Amber Lager."

Definitely a style that should be here to stay.
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Offline denny

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2021, 07:21:38 PM »
IIRC ireks used to make some pretty popular LME?

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Yep.  It was diastatic and the cans kept exploding.  That was 20 years or so ago,
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vienna lager
« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2021, 07:51:00 PM »
This is all timely because I have a Marzen cold, kegged and carbed and I have a Vienna Lager in a fermenter now.  Next up is my recipe for a beer brewed by New Glarus in WI called "Two Women".  Very simple beer that the brewers describe as a German Country Lager.  Two Malts, one hop.  They will not hand out recipe information but I'm pretty sure the recipe is Pils + Munich 2, the hop is Hallertau Mittelfruh and the yeast is either 2308 or 838.  I have 838 running now so I am making it this weekend.  It's not far from an Oktoberfest so I would potentially have a Vienna, Oktoberfest and Marzen all in a close timeline.  I'm going to make this beer with a 60/40 Pils/Munich 2 grain bill, around 24-25 IBUs of HM to bitter and then another half ounce at 10 minutes.  Simple and easy-drinking. 
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