Author Topic: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!  (Read 393 times)

Offline sbalovich

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Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« on: February 12, 2021, 08:03:31 PM »
Hey Folks, Just thought I'd pop in with some data based on my "Covid -19 working from home boredom based obsession with finding out how to brew with rye" space that I'm currently in.  Over the last few months I've had the opportunity to test several iterations and I've come up with a British Best Bitter recipe that I think I dialed in using 4% Weyermann Chocolate Rye.  I've also been dialing in the mouthfeel part that compliments the spicy and, even at 4%, drying effect of rye (especially chocolate rye which is roasted). 

First I started out in a logical place (Denny's copious information on everything Rye) and brewed a batch of Wry Smile... to the numbers.  Well... sort of as I could never get 1450/Brewtek CL-50 to attenuate well.  (Trust me... I've been brewing for 24 years and a yeast whisperer... That yeast is ridiculously finicky).  I harvested and used a second gen since the first beer was tasty... albeit with a FG of 1.018 (unacceptable to me).  Second try... 1.018.  Made a British Mild... OG 1.038 and final gravity of... 1.015 with third gen of 1450/Brewtek CL-50.  Done... Bye Bye... Also, as a former professional brewer I see everything in terms of purchased ingredients, time to finish and of course... drinkability.  I can't see that yeast in any sort of production facility at all.

Changed the approach... still need that rye spicy finish but also still need that mouthfeel that I firmly believe is yeast derived.  One more Wry Smile attempt because it's a proven winner and is indeed tasty... London Ale III or 1318 was the ticket I thought... well, sort of.  Even at low temps it still gives some esters that I didn't want.  I tried again and tossed in a Manchester strain (RVA's Manchester) which I love in NIEPA's and produces plenty of glycerin for that mouthfeel but that attributed the lovely Graham Cracker flavor which was out of place in Denny's recipe and believe it or not... the Mild too.  Okay enough writing... here's what I settled on... I went back to the basics and brewed a Special/Strong Bitter and tossed in Lallemand's New England Dry yeast.  My hopes were not high but hey I'm working from home, have the time... and I'm learning! 

This really worked!

OG  1.055
FG  1.013
Actual OG 1.052
Actual FG  1.012
IBU = 34


10lbs  Maris Otter
1lb     White Wheat
14oz   Simpsons light crystal  50L
8oz    Weyermann Chocolate Rye (4% of the grist)

1oz  EKG @ 60
1oz  EKG @ 30
2oz  EGK @ flameout while knocking out
1oz  EKG @ Dry hop (end of fermentation)

The fermentation was  carried out at 62 degrees in a Spike temp controlled conical (raised to 66 free rise after dry hop on day 3)
Mashed at 152 single infusion with mash out

Notes: Copper colored, a bit earthy/floral from the hopping schedule which is perfect for a Best Bitter.  Mouthfeel is perfect with that signature dry finish and then wait for it... spiciness at the end which turns you right around to dive back in for another.  My wife said, "It's like when you are eating 70% chocolate and there is that pleasant bitterness but the flavor makes you go right back for more..."  Perfect I think. 

IF you've read this far thank you... Like I said I've had time while working from home to dive into an ingredient which I've avoided for ever but always envied those that could do it right.  Rye is tricky and needs a few things to help compliment it.  Try the recipe above.  You may love it... you may hate it but it's beer, it has Rye... and I think it works well... finally. 

Cheers!

SB~
"There are many ways to brew successfully, so don't be fooled into thinking there is only one way to do it.  The goal isn't to learn to brew like me; It's to use my experiences as an example so you can develop your own personal style on your system"-  Gordon Strong

Online denny

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2021, 08:13:20 PM »
I can't recall ever having a problem getting it to attenuate .  What were your results?  I know several commercial breweries were/are using it.  I always get that beer to go from 1.073 to 1.013
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline dannyjed

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2021, 08:21:11 PM »
Congrats! Nice to see your persistence paid off. I tip my hat to homebrewers who can focus on one beer/style until they nail it down. I’m always all over the place with what I’m brewing. I suffer from beer ADD.


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Dan Chisholm

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2021, 08:41:51 PM »
Congrats! Nice to see your persistence paid off. I tip my hat to homebrewers who can focus on one beer/style until they nail it down. I’m always all over the place with what I’m brewing. I suffer from beer ADD.


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13 test batches of Wry Smile
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline sbalovich

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2021, 09:46:13 PM »
Hey Denny,

The first time I ran the Wry Smile recipe I used a 2L Shaken-not-Stirred starter which was vigorous (I like to add yeast un-decanted that has either just krausened or is at full krausen and I don't want a bunch of oxidated starter in the beer from a stir plate).  I ran the temp at 64 for the first week and slowly ramped it up to 70 over the three weeks it was in the fermenter.  With gen 2 and gen 3 I simply took parts of the yeast cake and repitched them.  I guess that yeast has humbled me a bit as I consider myself pretty capable of coaxing yeast into submission... especially after a few generations and iterations of experience with one yeast.  I absolutely do not doubt you get that yeast to behave (read attenuate) but alas I just could not.  The comment I made about commercial production was probably out of frustration (and the fact the yeast never flocc'ed out for me which I didn't mention before but wasn't a deal-breaker at all).  Also... I don't doubt that there are folks using it commercially and they clearly understand how to make it happy.  I just got frustrated after three tries is all.  It should also be known I kept a plate of 1450 as I'm not a quitter!  :-)

I plan to try the Lallemand yeast in the Wry Smile now too just so I can have some of that on hand... Incredibly tasty.  Any tips or things I missed with 1450 I'm all ears.

Thanks Denny,

SB~

EDIT:  forgot to mention that in all my tries with 1450 in the Wry Smile recipe the mouthfeel, which I feel is critical, was DEFINITELY there.  Had I gotten the FG down four more points I would have experienced the magic.  :-)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 09:55:04 PM by sbalovich »
"There are many ways to brew successfully, so don't be fooled into thinking there is only one way to do it.  The goal isn't to learn to brew like me; It's to use my experiences as an example so you can develop your own personal style on your system"-  Gordon Strong

Offline dannyjed

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2021, 09:54:26 PM »
I have used WY 1450 quite a bit and I always get 75-78% attenuation.


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Dan Chisholm

Offline sbalovich

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2021, 10:01:42 PM »
Yah totally not doubting anyone... There's a reason it's a "Favorite" :-)

My OG on Wry Smile has been 1.073 each time so I'm starting from the same starting line as everyone else.  I put out my process here, which is not different than when I use other yeasts and my resultant attenuation was sub-optimal.  Brewed since with other yeasts and same procedures with expected results.  After reading much today I see others have indeed felt my woes.  Possibly a strain deviation?  Who knows.  I'm next going to try with a large overpitch.  I'm not quittin'  :-)

SB~
"There are many ways to brew successfully, so don't be fooled into thinking there is only one way to do it.  The goal isn't to learn to brew like me; It's to use my experiences as an example so you can develop your own personal style on your system"-  Gordon Strong

Offline Oiscout

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2021, 10:23:44 PM »
I've never brewed with Rye before so please forgive me in advance but with that much base malt and crystal how does half a pound of rye stick out in this beer. Interested in the results you got by putting so much work into such a small amount of an ingredient. If Rye is that potent I may have to rethink this Pale Ale with Rye I plan on brewing.

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2021, 03:54:34 PM »
I've never brewed with Rye before so please forgive me in advance but with that much base malt and crystal how does half a pound of rye stick out in this beer. Interested in the results you got by putting so much work into such a small amount of an ingredient. If Rye is that potent I may have to rethink this Pale Ale with Rye I plan on brewing.

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I would agree with you.  I find I need a minimum of 18% rye to taste it and usually go over 20%.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Oiscout

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2021, 04:42:22 PM »
I've never brewed with Rye before so please forgive me in advance but with that much base malt and crystal how does half a pound of rye stick out in this beer. Interested in the results you got by putting so much work into such a small amount of an ingredient. If Rye is that potent I may have to rethink this Pale Ale with Rye I plan on brewing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I would agree with you.  I find I need a minimum of 18% rye to taste it and usually go over 20%.
I was thinking the same thing current grist ratio for me is about 17 percent. I didn't want to sound like a pretentious dickhead but I was curious.

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Online denny

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2021, 04:55:30 PM »
I've never brewed with Rye before so please forgive me in advance but with that much base malt and crystal how does half a pound of rye stick out in this beer. Interested in the results you got by putting so much work into such a small amount of an ingredient. If Rye is that potent I may have to rethink this Pale Ale with Rye I plan on brewing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I would agree with you.  I find I need a minimum of 18% rye to taste it and usually go over 20%.
I was thinking the same thing current grist ratio for me is about 17 percent. I didn't want to sound like a pretentious dickhead but I was curious.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I seem to specialize in sounding like a pretentious dickhead
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Oiscout

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Re: Rye Experimentation- Getting there!
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2021, 05:09:18 PM »
I've never brewed with Rye before so please forgive me in advance but with that much base malt and crystal how does half a pound of rye stick out in this beer. Interested in the results you got by putting so much work into such a small amount of an ingredient. If Rye is that potent I may have to rethink this Pale Ale with Rye I plan on brewing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I would agree with you.  I find I need a minimum of 18% rye to taste it and usually go over 20%.
I was thinking the same thing current grist ratio for me is about 17 percent. I didn't want to sound like a pretentious dickhead but I was curious.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I seem to specialize in sounding like a pretentious dickhead
Lmao

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk