Author Topic: Invert Sugar  (Read 1369 times)

Offline Megary

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2021, 12:08:41 AM »
No, no, no on those temperatures. The difference between #1 to #4 is not temperature it is time. They are all made at the same temperature.

Beer historian Ron Pattinson has a recipe in his book, The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer, page 18.

  • Maintain heat between 240F - 250F.
  • For invert #1 heat for 20 - 30 minutes.
  • For #2 heat for 90 - 120 minutes.
  • For #3 heat for 150 - 210 minutes.
  • For #4 heat for 240 - 300 minutes

Use an unrefined, raw sugar to make your invert. Turbinado or Demerara for example. It shouldn't crystalize while making it.
Nice contribution. Thanks. That is helpful.

The temperatures I cited were not meant as a road map for making invert #1, 2, and 3. Those are boiling temperatures of sucrose syrup.

For Pattison's recipe, how do you maintain the 240-250F temperature? Continue to add water to counteract evaporation to keep the boiling point in that range? or reduce the heat low enough to hold the solution at 240-250F after reaching that boiling point?  It seems like it would be very difficult to hold at 240-250F without adding small amounts of water.  I am not sure if I could reduce the heat from my stove's burner low enough to effectively stay in the 240-250F range. I haven't tried that though.

In my post the comments about temperature were mostly related to 236F being a commonly recommended point to stop heating to ensure you have a pourable syrup thickness.  I stand by that number. Going higher to induce melanoidan reactions to brown the syrup is good but afterwards I think it is best to come back down to 236F by adding water before packaging.

The table I showed above is from this book:
Potter, Norman N.; Hotchkiss, Joseph H., eds. (1998). Food Science (5th ed.). Aspen Publishers. p. 468, table 20.3. ISBN 083421265X.
Available on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=ERoAm13YF8IC&pg=PA467#v=onepage&q&f=false

The book includes the table and states the following.

"Greater concentrations of sucrose can be dissolved by raising the temperature of the water. The higher the sucrose concentration, the higher the boiling point of such solutions. Candy-makers take advantage of the precise relationship between boiling point and sucrose concentration to control the final degree of water in confections. This is done by heating a sugar syrup to a selected temperature corresponding to the sugar and water concentrations desired (Table 20.3). When boiling syrup reaches temperature, it will have the desired sugar concentration."
*Table 20.3 is the table in my original post with F values added.
**The table is for sucrose solutions. Invert is glucose and fructose. So, the table may not be exactly correct for Invert syrups. I don't know that.

I appreciated knowing the boiling temp tied directly to the sugar and water concentration because that means two things:
(1) I can guarantee water content and therefore syrup viscosity.
(2) I can calculate my syrup's PPG as the sugar concentration  value from the table * 46. For example: 236F is 113C. Interpolating from the table a syrup taken off heat at 236F has sugar concentration of ~81% so its PPG is 0.81*46 = 37 PPG.

Great post. I remember reading somewhere, might have been in the depths of this forum, that using an oven to hold temperature - instead of the stovetop - is an easier way to go.  That would assume a well calibrated oven of course. Anyone ever make invert in the oven?

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2021, 02:44:23 AM »
No, no, no on those temperatures. The difference between #1 to #4 is not temperature it is time. They are all made at the same temperature.

Beer historian Ron Pattinson has a recipe in his book, The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer, page 18.

  • Maintain heat between 240F - 250F.
  • For invert #1 heat for 20 - 30 minutes.
  • For #2 heat for 90 - 120 minutes.
  • For #3 heat for 150 - 210 minutes.
  • For #4 heat for 240 - 300 minutes

Use an unrefined, raw sugar to make your invert. Turbinado or Demerara for example. It shouldn't crystalize while making it.
Nice contribution. Thanks. That is helpful.

The temperatures I cited were not meant as a road map for making invert #1, 2, and 3. Those are boiling temperatures of sucrose syrup.

For Pattison's recipe, how do you maintain the 240-250F temperature? Continue to add water to counteract evaporation to keep the boiling point in that range? or reduce the heat low enough to hold the solution at 240-250F after reaching that boiling point?  It seems like it would be very difficult to hold at 240-250F without adding small amounts of water.  I am not sure if I could reduce the heat from my stove's burner low enough to effectively stay in the 240-250F range. I haven't tried that though.

In my post the comments about temperature were mostly related to 236F being a commonly recommended point to stop heating to ensure you have a pourable syrup thickness.  I stand by that number. Going higher to induce melanoidan reactions to brown the syrup is good but afterwards I think it is best to come back down to 236F by adding water before packaging.

The table I showed above is from this book:
Potter, Norman N.; Hotchkiss, Joseph H., eds. (1998). Food Science (5th ed.). Aspen Publishers. p. 468, table 20.3. ISBN 083421265X.
Available on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=ERoAm13YF8IC&pg=PA467#v=onepage&q&f=false

The book includes the table and states the following.

"Greater concentrations of sucrose can be dissolved by raising the temperature of the water. The higher the sucrose concentration, the higher the boiling point of such solutions. Candy-makers take advantage of the precise relationship between boiling point and sucrose concentration to control the final degree of water in confections. This is done by heating a sugar syrup to a selected temperature corresponding to the sugar and water concentrations desired (Table 20.3). When boiling syrup reaches temperature, it will have the desired sugar concentration."
*Table 20.3 is the table in my original post with F values added.
**The table is for sucrose solutions. Invert is glucose and fructose. So, the table may not be exactly correct for Invert syrups. I don't know that.

I appreciated knowing the boiling temp tied directly to the sugar and water concentration because that means two things:
(1) I can guarantee water content and therefore syrup viscosity.
(2) I can calculate my syrup's PPG as the sugar concentration  value from the table * 46. For example: 236F is 113C. Interpolating from the table a syrup taken off heat at 236F has sugar concentration of ~81% so its PPG is 0.81*46 = 37 PPG.

Great post. I remember reading somewhere, might have been in the depths of this forum, that using an oven to hold temperature - instead of the stovetop - is an easier way to go.  That would assume a well calibrated oven of course. Anyone ever make invert in the oven?
Definitely sounds plausible. I have heard the oven trick for holding mash temp.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2021, 03:00:52 AM »
I’ve read about using the oven to make invert but haven’t done it myself
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2021, 04:09:30 AM »
No, no, no on those temperatures. The difference between #1 to #4 is not temperature it is time. They are all made at the same temperature.

Beer historian Ron Pattinson has a recipe in his book, The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer, page 18.

  • Maintain heat between 240F - 250F.
  • For invert #1 heat for 20 - 30 minutes.
  • For #2 heat for 90 - 120 minutes.
  • For #3 heat for 150 - 210 minutes.
  • For #4 heat for 240 - 300 minutes

Use an unrefined, raw sugar to make your invert. Turbinado or Demerara for example. It shouldn't crystalize while making it.
Nice contribution. Thanks. That is helpful.

The temperatures I cited were not meant as a road map for making invert #1, 2, and 3. Those are boiling temperatures of sucrose syrup.

For Pattison's recipe, how do you maintain the 240-250F temperature? Continue to add water to counteract evaporation to keep the boiling point in that range? or reduce the heat low enough to hold the solution at 240-250F after reaching that boiling point?  It seems like it would be very difficult to hold at 240-250F without adding small amounts of water.  I am not sure if I could reduce the heat from my stove's burner low enough to effectively stay in the 240-250F range. I haven't tried that though.

In my post the comments about temperature were mostly related to 236F being a commonly recommended point to stop heating to ensure you have a pourable syrup thickness.  I stand by that number. Going higher to induce melanoidan reactions to brown the syrup is good but afterwards I think it is best to come back down to 236F by adding water before packaging.

The table I showed above is from this book:
Potter, Norman N.; Hotchkiss, Joseph H., eds. (1998). Food Science (5th ed.). Aspen Publishers. p. 468, table 20.3. ISBN 083421265X.
Available on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=ERoAm13YF8IC&pg=PA467#v=onepage&q&f=false

The book includes the table and states the following.

"Greater concentrations of sucrose can be dissolved by raising the temperature of the water. The higher the sucrose concentration, the higher the boiling point of such solutions. Candy-makers take advantage of the precise relationship between boiling point and sucrose concentration to control the final degree of water in confections. This is done by heating a sugar syrup to a selected temperature corresponding to the sugar and water concentrations desired (Table 20.3). When boiling syrup reaches temperature, it will have the desired sugar concentration."
*Table 20.3 is the table in my original post with F values added.
**The table is for sucrose solutions. Invert is glucose and fructose. So, the table may not be exactly correct for Invert syrups. I don't know that.

I appreciated knowing the boiling temp tied directly to the sugar and water concentration because that means two things:
(1) I can guarantee water content and therefore syrup viscosity.
(2) I can calculate my syrup's PPG as the sugar concentration  value from the table * 46. For example: 236F is 113C. Interpolating from the table a syrup taken off heat at 236F has sugar concentration of ~81% so its PPG is 0.81*46 = 37 PPG.

Great post. I remember reading somewhere, might have been in the depths of this forum, that using an oven to hold temperature - instead of the stovetop - is an easier way to go.  That would assume a well calibrated oven of course. Anyone ever make invert in the oven?
Definitely sounds plausible. I have heard the oven trick for holding mash temp.
i heard about the oven here, forgot who stated that.

Talking it over with the wife she suggested  heating the sugar in a dutch oven on the stoove top to 240F. Preheat oven to 240 F so you can put the lid on the dutch oven and put in the oven.  I did that, after 20 minutes  I checked the temp of the sugar with the thermapen, it read 240F. I've made #2 and #3 that way.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2021, 04:52:57 AM »
No, no, no on those temperatures. The difference between #1 to #4 is not temperature it is time. They are all made at the same temperature.

Beer historian Ron Pattinson has a recipe in his book, The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer, page 18.

  • Maintain heat between 240F - 250F.
  • For invert #1 heat for 20 - 30 minutes.
  • For #2 heat for 90 - 120 minutes.
  • For #3 heat for 150 - 210 minutes.
  • For #4 heat for 240 - 300 minutes

Use an unrefined, raw sugar to make your invert. Turbinado or Demerara for example. It shouldn't crystalize while making it.
Nice contribution. Thanks. That is helpful.

The temperatures I cited were not meant as a road map for making invert #1, 2, and 3. Those are boiling temperatures of sucrose syrup.

For Pattison's recipe, how do you maintain the 240-250F temperature? Continue to add water to counteract evaporation to keep the boiling point in that range? or reduce the heat low enough to hold the solution at 240-250F after reaching that boiling point?  It seems like it would be very difficult to hold at 240-250F without adding small amounts of water.  I am not sure if I could reduce the heat from my stove's burner low enough to effectively stay in the 240-250F range. I haven't tried that though.

In my post the comments about temperature were mostly related to 236F being a commonly recommended point to stop heating to ensure you have a pourable syrup thickness.  I stand by that number. Going higher to induce melanoidan reactions to brown the syrup is good but afterwards I think it is best to come back down to 236F by adding water before packaging.

The table I showed above is from this book:
Potter, Norman N.; Hotchkiss, Joseph H., eds. (1998). Food Science (5th ed.). Aspen Publishers. p. 468, table 20.3. ISBN 083421265X.
Available on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=ERoAm13YF8IC&pg=PA467#v=onepage&q&f=false

The book includes the table and states the following.

"Greater concentrations of sucrose can be dissolved by raising the temperature of the water. The higher the sucrose concentration, the higher the boiling point of such solutions. Candy-makers take advantage of the precise relationship between boiling point and sucrose concentration to control the final degree of water in confections. This is done by heating a sugar syrup to a selected temperature corresponding to the sugar and water concentrations desired (Table 20.3). When boiling syrup reaches temperature, it will have the desired sugar concentration."
*Table 20.3 is the table in my original post with F values added.
**The table is for sucrose solutions. Invert is glucose and fructose. So, the table may not be exactly correct for Invert syrups. I don't know that.

I appreciated knowing the boiling temp tied directly to the sugar and water concentration because that means two things:
(1) I can guarantee water content and therefore syrup viscosity.
(2) I can calculate my syrup's PPG as the sugar concentration  value from the table * 46. For example: 236F is 113C. Interpolating from the table a syrup taken off heat at 236F has sugar concentration of ~81% so its PPG is 0.81*46 = 37 PPG.

Great post. I remember reading somewhere, might have been in the depths of this forum, that using an oven to hold temperature - instead of the stovetop - is an easier way to go.  That would assume a well calibrated oven of course. Anyone ever make invert in the oven?
Definitely sounds plausible. I have heard the oven trick for holding mash temp.
i heard about the oven here, forgot who stated that.

Talking it over with the wife she suggested  heating the sugar in a dutch oven on the stoove top to 240F. Preheat oven to 240 F so you can put the lid on the dutch oven and put in the oven.  I did that, after 20 minutes  I checked the temp of the sugar with the thermapen, it read 240F. I've made #2 and #3 that way.
Nice.

Offline pete b

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2021, 12:02:35 PM »
I have a few pounds of turbinado sugar I may try this with using the oven this weekend. I will make sure to check the oven’s calibration  first. Jeff just mentioned leaving the cover of the Dutch oven on. Evaporation isn’t wanted/ needed I take it?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2021, 01:17:02 PM »
I have a few pounds of turbinado sugar I may try this with using the oven this weekend. I will make sure to check the oven’s calibration  first. Jeff just mentioned leaving the cover of the Dutch oven on. Evaporation isn’t wanted/ needed I take it?

The water has evaporated. My thoughts are that the lid helps even the temperature as the stove oven cycles on/off/on. The measurement was dead on 240F, which was satisfying to see.

The feature of this technique is that your work storing the sugar syrup is done once you put the Dutch oven into the stove oven. Set the timer and go do something else.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Kevin

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2021, 02:21:54 PM »
Regarding evaporation don't worry about it. Trust the process. If you start with a pound of sugar you will end up with a pound of invert. I really should use the oven method but I make mine on the stove top with a candy thermometer and just baby sit the hell out of it until it is finished. That's 2 1/2 hours or more of not leaving the kitchen to make a batch of #3 so I always do at least 5lbs at a time.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2021, 04:30:26 PM »
I have a few pounds of turbinado sugar I may try this with using the oven this weekend. I will make sure to check the oven’s calibration  first. Jeff just mentioned leaving the cover of the Dutch oven on. Evaporation isn’t wanted/ needed I take it?

The water has evaporated. My thoughts are that the lid helps even the temperature as the stove oven cycles on/off/on. The measurement was dead on 240F, which was satisfying to see.

The feature of this technique is that your work stirring the sugar syrup is done once you put the Dutch oven into the stove oven. Set the timer and go do something else.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Mkonzak

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2021, 05:30:15 PM »
I've used a stove top pressure canner (a small 12 quart one) to help make invert sugar and regulate the temperature.

I start the sugar, water, and acid on a normal pot on the stove to get up the syrup to 240 degrees. I then transferred the invert syrup into pint mason jars (which has ended up being about a pound a piece), add those to the canner, and let the pressure canner come up to pressure and ~250 degrees.  It's easy to keep it there for anywhere from 20 minutes to a couple of hours depending on which grade I'm making. It worked pretty well and gives me nicely portioned amounts in sealed containers. I may make a bunch of cup jars next time for extra flexibility.

I've also made small batches of invert #1 this way when I've also needed to can some wort for yeast starters. Increase the pressure time to whatever you need and you get some sterilized wort and lighter invert sugar at the same time. 

Mike

Offline tommymorris

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2021, 12:26:42 AM »
This post has the recipe from Ron Pattinson that Kevin refers to above.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31756.0

Offline joe_meadmaker

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2021, 02:24:33 AM »
An invert sugar accident...

I've made invert sugar a number of times.  One of the last times I moved it to a glass jar in the sink to allow it to cool.  After a bit I wanted to check the weight, but unfortunately I hadn't given it enough time.  As I was lowering the jar onto the scale, the bottom of it gave out.  You can see in the picture that the bottom of the jar landed right on the scale.  I would estimate there was probably 4 - 4.5 lb of invert sugar in that jar, and it was all over.  That is one of the worst cleanups I've ever had.

In regard to making invert sugar, I've always followed Ron's guidelines.


Offline pete b

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2021, 02:31:31 AM »
That’s brutal!
I am glad you were not hurt, hot syrup and shards of glass would not have been good.
But the beer was ok!
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Offline joe_meadmaker

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2021, 02:36:20 AM »
But the beer was ok!

Lol!  Yep, the beer survived.  And I finished that beer on the porch in a state of disbelief before I started cleaning stuff up.

Offline pete b

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Re: Invert Sugar
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2021, 12:23:38 PM »
Any opinions on what the most useful invert sugar is to make and have around for multiple recipes? I haven’t paid attention to how often various invert varieties appear in recipes.
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.