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Author Topic: Why did I release SNS into the wild?  (Read 3232 times)

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2021, 08:52:05 pm »
I'll be honest here, I didn't have great results with SNS.  Consider it one data point.  If the secret sauce is the size of the container, that could be the main problem as I don't have anything bigger than a gallon jug.  It could also be poor timing since I can't necessarily plan my brew day down to the hour.  I don't get any foam when using pressure canned starter wort, so maybe DME produces better structure for this.  I did the intermittent shaking method 15 years ago, and without fixing these issues I don't see much difference.

That is interesting.  What size was your starter wort?  Were you able to turn at least 50% of the wort into foam?  That is pretty much the threshold for the technique to work.  I used to use 40ml of autoclaved/pressure-cooked wort to make first-level starters when starting yeast from slant.  I always achieved at least a thin foam head on those tiny starters, so I do not think that it was the pressure-canned starter wort.  What I have observed is that pressure cooking wort does is cause a greater amount of protein to break out of solution than boiling, but that does not explain the lack of performance.

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2021, 09:01:42 pm »
Nope, almost no foam starting with pressure canned (all grain) wort and a vial of fresh yeast.  However, second generation did produce a bunch of foam; this was a mishmash of everything at the bottom of the fermenter, relatively clean but probably with some hop trub as well.

Don't get me wrong, I want this to work.  Easy is good!

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2021, 09:13:03 pm »
That is interesting because the method has worked like clockwork for so many  people. Have you tried direct O2 injection into pressure-canned starter wort?  What is the gravity of the wort?  I am assuming that you are making a one quart/one liter starter in a one-gallon glass jug.

narvin

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2021, 09:20:11 pm »
Direct O2 injection was actually the only time I had my starter wort smell stale at the end.  Initial manual shaking of the jug plus slow stirring (4/10 on cimarec stir plate) never smells bad and I still decant the wort after chilling.  I can it at 1.076 and dilute 50/50 with distilled water.

It could have something to do with my wort.  I go straight from the mash to the canner, out of laziness.  Never caused a problem. There is a ton of break material at the bottom of the ball jar, though.

i did use 1 quart of wort in a gallon jug for the SNS.  i'll try it again with the same canned wort and take a video.



« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 09:33:05 pm by narvin »

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2021, 09:28:27 am »
It could have something to do with my wort.  I go straight from the mash to the canner, out of laziness.  Never caused a problem. There is a ton of break material at the bottom of the ball jar, though.

Nothing makes protein break out of solution like cooking wort at 121C/250F under pressure.  I was shocked the first time I observed it because I had hopped, pre-boiled, and filtered the wort through a paper coffee filter before pressuring cooking it.  I did so hoping to obtain sediment-free sterile wort. 

Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 05:49:02 am »
I don't use SNS either. Mostly because I make lagers more often than ales. I crash cool the starter prior to pitch, so SNS won't work. I crash cool to drop the yeast out of suspension and to drop the temperature of the slurry to avoid thermally shocking the yeast. The shocking of the yeast isn't a too big of a deal, but lag times times are greatly increased. Another reason I don't do SNS is I'm often not home when the starter is going, so there is no one there to shake it. I'm not sure why people say it's easier, I also use canned wort and a starter is put together in 15 minutes or so, so I don't see how it could be easier or faster. Much of the beer I make goes into a competition and I win more often than not, so I don't see an improvement on the overall quality of the beer.

I do see it as a benefit for ales, pitching at high krausen does work. It reduces both lag times and the required pitch rate. As far as who came up with it or getting credit for it, I'm sorry but a lot of people come up with great ideas and give them away. It's called a homebrew club meeting. When ever I come up with a new method or technique, I have to admit someone somewhere gave me an idea or inspiration to do it and I owe them a debt of gratitude.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 09:42:05 am by HighVoltageMan! »

Offline pete b

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2021, 06:07:20 am »
Another reason I don't do SNS is I'm often not home when the starter is going, so there is no one there to shake it.
It only gets shaken once, at the beginning.
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2021, 06:41:37 am »
Another reason I don't do SNS is I'm often not home when the starter is going, so there is no one there to shake it.
It only gets shaken once, at the beginning.
From what I understand, the starter benefits from an occasional stir. This will a number of things, reduce CO2 levels to promote yeast growth and possibly introduce additional oxygen, again to promote yeast growth and health.

Offline PORTERHAUS

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 11:29:34 am »
Maybe it's covered somewhere but I would like to ask if this process has ever been used with dry yeasts. Either way, perhaps Saccharomyces can dive into dry yeast a bit. I see that you do in fact use dry yeast, probably harvested but what about your practices with it on initial pitch?

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2021, 11:41:25 am »
Maybe it's covered somewhere but I would like to ask if this process has ever been used with dry yeasts. Either way, perhaps Saccharomyces can dive into dry yeast a bit. I see that you do in fact use dry yeast, probably harvested but what about your practices with it on initial pitch?

Dry yeasts do not benefit from oxygenation based on their reserves built up in the drying process, at least that is how I understand it.
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Offline denny

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2021, 11:46:49 am »
Maybe it's covered somewhere but I would like to ask if this process has ever been used with dry yeasts. Either way, perhaps Saccharomyces can dive into dry yeast a bit. I see that you do in fact use dry yeast, probably harvested but what about your practices with it on initial pitch?

A starter with dry yeast can be counterproductive.
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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2021, 12:44:27 pm »
Maybe it's covered somewhere but I would like to ask if this process has ever been used with dry yeasts. Either way, perhaps Saccharomyces can dive into dry yeast a bit. I see that you do in fact use dry yeast, probably harvested but what about your practices with it on initial pitch?

A starter with dry yeast can be counterproductive.
The only time this would be counter productive is if there were no aeration at the time of pitch. Once dry yeast goes through a starter or a fermentation, it must be treated as a liquid yeast and pitched into properly aerated wort. Dry yeast has lipid and sterol reserves from the the drying process as mentioned above, enough reserves to reproduce 4-5 times in a low oxygen environment. The reserves are used up in a starter.

I do use starters for dry yeast when I want to build up yeast counts for lagers. It works really well. All that is needed is a single pack of yeast and you can build it to the pitch you want, you just need to aerate properly at pitch. It's great because dry yeast keeps so long, it's like a poor man's yeast bank at home.

I also use a 1/2 liter starter when I pitch a single pack of S04. I make a starter when I start brewing and pitch the whole thing in well aerated, cooled wort. The starter doesn't increase cell counts in this case, but it gets the yeast going prior to pitch, reducing lag times by half even with a slight under pitch. Typically I pitch S04 @ .3-.5 million cell/mL/degree plato to prevent the beer from puking out the top of the fermenter.

Offline BeerfanOz

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2021, 01:52:53 pm »
The reality might be that yeast isn’t as fussy as we think it is. It doesn’t have to have an exact amount of starter liquid or cell counts, just somewhere in the ball park. I’ve definitely been in a rush and not had time to do starters exactly how I’d like to but the beers still turn out fine
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Offline coolman26

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2021, 05:28:24 pm »
I’ve always liked SNS if I have fresh yeast. This isn’t all that often when I get delayed by the weather. When my yeast isn’t fresh, I resort to my plate.  I rev it up and create some foam and air intake. I pitch and let it spin slowly.  The days of pounding it on high speed are long gone. That still produced some great beer though.
Jeff B

Offline denny

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Re: Why did I release SNS into the wild?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2021, 09:08:18 am »
The reality might be that yeast isn’t as fussy as we think it is. It doesn’t have to have an exact amount of starter liquid or cell counts, just somewhere in the ball park. I’ve definitely been in a rush and not had time to do starters exactly how I’d like to but the beers still turn out fine

So much this!  So much in the brewing world is "close enough is good enough".  If you care to obsess over fpdetils, that's your choice.  But many of the things home brewers obsess over just don't matter to the beer.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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