[denny]

Wow.  I have not used Diamond before, but based on real world experiences with a lot of dried yeasts, and conversations like the one below, like Denny, I would use only 1 pack.  Or maybe 2 at the most if there were any concern at all about age or viability.  3 packs is friggin overkill.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.msg358328#msg358328

There's theory and then there's reality.

[Saccharomyces]

I over pitch every brew. Especially on first gen dry yeast. This Diamond was slow at 52 degrees F, with ferment activity beginning after 30 hours. The OG was 1.060.

You pitch on the cold side.   I never pitch at 52F.  Heck, I never ferment at 52F.  I usually ferment lagers between 12C/54F and 15C/59F. The first part of my last fermentation was at 14C/57F.  With Frohberg strains, every degree counts.  A higher pitching rate overcomes the longer replication period. I personally do not care for lagers that are fermented on the colder side of the cryotolerance range.  I like lagers with some yeast character, but that is just my personal preference.  If Escarpment Labs ever releases Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 (CBS 1513), I believe that it would be right up your alley with respect to cold fermentation. There was a time when Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 was the dominant lager yeast culture in American industrial brewing.  It is the Saaz type strain.  My assumption is that Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 lost out to Frohberg strains like the Christian Schmidt strain because Frohberg strains can operate at warmer temperatures, which results in a reduction in production time and operating costs.  Shaefer allegedly used Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 until they were acquired by the Stroh Brewing Company and Finally Pabst.  However, that is just hersay.   The same thing was said about the Miller culture that became Wyeast 2042 Danish.  Langdon's work revealed that 2042 is a Frohberg strain.

[Bel Air Brewing]

We pitch warmer, perhaps 62 degrees. Then the wort slowly (slowly) cools to the ferment temp.

5 packs of Diamond, in 10 gallons. That should do it. Took a peek inside, and there was mountains of what looked like whipped cream, and dish soap suds everywhere.

[BrewBama]

4 packets were pitched into 10 gallons.

You pitched ~77% of the mfr recommendation.

5 packs of Diamond, in 10 gallons. That should do it.

5 = 97% of mfr recommendation. Close enough.

Again, feel free to take or leave the mfr recommendation.


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[Bel Air Brewing]

4 packets were pitched into 10 gallons.

You pitched ~77% of the mfr recommendation.

5 packs of Diamond, in 10 gallons. That should do it.

5 = 97% of mfr recommendation. Close enough.

Again, feel free to take or leave the mfr recommendation.

Already took their (your advice) pitching another packet.
Thanks!

[clibit]

I am willing to give Diamond Lager a shot because, even though it can be slow to start, BRY-97 is the sole dry culture I have used that comes close in performance to liquid or cultured yeast.  Given the choice between the two dry yeast propagators, my bets are hedged on Lallemand at this point.  Every brewer needs a "just in case" culture.

I'm not quite the purist you are, I'm too lazy really and opt for dry yeast convenience quite often, but I enjoy reading your input. I like Bry-97 too, and I think MJ M44 may be the same yeast. Have you tried it? Any thoughts? What beers do you think Bry-97 suits best? I feel it suppresses hop aroma a bit.

I'm with you re Lallemand. I've gradually gravitated towards them having started life with US05 and other Fermentis strains. The Verdant is a huge gain in my opinion, for the sprinklers among us. Has filled a big hole for me. I like Belle Saison, cos I like tart, dry citrusy beer, and I've started blending it with other strains. I like their Abbaye too, from Chimay apparently. I have bought packs of Munich Classic, Voss and London to try out. I must try Diamond.

Nottingham and Windsor I use occasionally but here is where I know that liquid is better, I'm English after all, so my taste is more acutely aware. I need liquid for saison too, and I really like wlp644.

I reckon MJ lean heavily on Lallemand for their offerings.

[denny]

I am willing to give Diamond Lager a shot because, even though it can be slow to start, BRY-97 is the sole dry culture I have used that comes close in performance to liquid or cultured yeast.  Given the choice between the two dry yeast propagators, my bets are hedged on Lallemand at this point.  Every brewer needs a "just in case" culture.

I'm not quite the purist you are, I'm too lazy really and opt for dry yeast convenience quite often, but I enjoy reading your input. I like Bry-97 too, and I think MJ M44 may be the same yeast. Have you tried it? Any thoughts? What beers do you think Bry-97 suits best? I feel it suppresses hop aroma a bit.

I'm with you re Lallemand. I've gradually gravitated towards them having started life with US05 and other Fermentis strains. The Verdant is a huge gain in my opinion, for the sprinklers among us. Has filled a big hole for me. I like Belle Saison, cos I like tart, dry citrusy beer, and I've started blending it with other strains. I like their Abbaye too, from Chimay apparently. I have bought packs of Munich Classic, Voss and London to try out. I must try Diamond.

Nottingham and Windsor I use occasionally but here is where I know that liquid is better, I'm English after all, so my taste is more acutely aware. I need liquid for saison too, and I really like wlp644.

I reckon MJ lean heavily on Lallemand for their offerings.

WCIPA is my main use of BRY97 and I have never found it to suppress hops.

[clibit]

WCIPA is my main use of BRY97 and I have never found it to suppress hops.

Thanks Denny, that has been my impression but I don't think I have gone really big on hops with Bry-97. I have just felt the beers I have made with it have had less hop expression than similar beers with other yeasts. Nothing conclusive at all, takes a while and a number of brews to start to undertsand a strain properly, I find, and my M44 beers have varied, so it's probably me jumping to conclusions a bit. M44 sees very similar to Bry-97, at the very least.

[Bel Air Brewing]

The verdict is in.
Read more here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=36816.0

I have a one gallon slurry of W-34/70, that will be given away. Nuff Sed?

[rakader]

The Bohemian-style Pilsner that I fermented with W-34/70 eventually smoothed out to be enjoyable, but I do not see myself using Fermentis W-34/70 again.  It is just not clean enough from an off-taste point of view for me.  I am curious if anyone who has used Fermentis W-34/70 has used Lallemand Diamond lager as well.  After using S-04, US-05, and W-34/70, I can honestly say that I am not a fan of Fermentis.

W34/70 requires some practice. In addition, dry yeast is always a compromise for bottom-fermented beers. If you want it to be really Bohemian or Munich, order pure yeast directly from the original manufacturer, i.e. Weihenstephan.

Because this is expensive, brewers from Germany, Austria, and sometimes Switzerland often join together in a collective order, with one of them doing the distribution. This works surprisingly well.

Ulrich Peise, the technical director of the Weihenstephan yeast bank, is very open to hobby brewers. Maybe something can be done in the direction of the USA? It depends on your commitment...

[denny]

What evidence is there that the dry yeast isn't pure?

[Bel Air Brewing]

What evidence is there that the dry yeast isn't pure?

That is a good question. 90% of the time, we start with packages of dry yeast, now being Diamond Lager. But it's only dry for the initial use, being later harvested multiple times for upcoming ferments. So we actually use liquid yeast 90% of the time!
Based on our experience, it would appear that dry yeast is free of impurities.

[Saccharomyces]

W34/70 requires some practice. In addition, dry yeast is always a compromise for bottom-fermented beers. If you want it to be really Bohemian or Munich, order pure yeast directly from the original manufacturer, i.e. Weihenstephan.

Because this is expensive, brewers from Germany, Austria, and sometimes Switzerland often join together in a collective order, with one of them doing the distribution. This works surprisingly well.

Ulrich Peise, the technical director of the Weihenstephan yeast bank, is very open to hobby brewers. Maybe something can be done in the direction of the USA? It depends on your commitment...

I was going to by a couple of cultures on slant from the Hefebank about six years ago, but the cost per slant was ridiculous, about $300.00 at the time.  I was no stranger to paying more than $100.00 for a culture, but over $300 per culture shipped to my door was too rich for my blood.

[Saccharomyces]

That is a good question. 90% of the time, we start with packages of dry yeast, now being Diamond Lager. But it's only dry for the initial use, being later harvested multiple times for upcoming ferments. So we actually use liquid yeast 90% of the time!
Based on our experience, it would appear that dry yeast is free of impurities.

Dry yeast does in fact contain a tiny amount of contamination, but so do liquid cultures.   That is why it is best to not take the entire cake when one crops lager yeast.  Lager fermentation is cold enough that the pitching yeast has a significant competitive advantage, but that does not mean that there are not other micro-organisms in the culture.  By causing significant new growth with every pitch, the percentage of contamination from the original source is winnowed out.  That does not mean the culture will not become contaminated with house microflora.   True top-cropping strains have the advantage of being self purifying because wild yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top; therefore, true top-cropping cultures remain purer than bottom-cropped yeast cultures in successive use, that is, if they are top-cropped.  The sad thing is that most ale cultures are not true top-cropping having been conditioned to work in conical fermentation vessels.  Luckily, Lallemand finally has a dry true top-cropping strain; namely, Verdant IPA.

[Bel Air Brewing]

That is a good question. 90% of the time, we start with packages of dry yeast, now being Diamond Lager. But it's only dry for the initial use, being later harvested multiple times for upcoming ferments. So we actually use liquid yeast 90% of the time!
Based on our experience, it would appear that dry yeast is free of impurities.

Dry yeast does in fact contain a tiny amount of contamination, but so do liquid cultures.   That is why it is best to not take the entire cake when one crops lager yeast.  Lager fermentation is cold enough that the pitching yeast has a significant competitive advantage, but that does not mean that there are not other micro-organisms in the culture.  By causing significant new growth with every pitch, the percentage of contamination from the original source is winnowed out.  That does not mean the culture will not become contaminated with house microflora.   True top-cropping strains have the advantage of being self purifying because wild yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top; therefore, true top-cropping cultures remain purer than bottom-cropped yeast cultures in successive use, that is, if they are top-cropped.  The sad thing is that most ale cultures are not true top-cropping having been conditioned to work in conical fermentation vessels.  Luckily, Lallemand finally has a dry true top-cropping strain; namely, Verdant IPA.

Allow me to modify my previous statement...based on our experience in harvesting yeast over multiple generations, it appears that whatever contamination exists is low enough in quantity that there is not any noticeable negative impact on the finished beer.