Author Topic: Paging passenger Saccharomyces, please report to the yeast subforum concourse...  (Read 1550 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1882
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
 :D

I think this topic has been touched on in other threads but I have been meaning to ask you about it specifically.  On the topic of pitching the proper amount of yeast, it has been mentioned that the yeast will go through a phase that produces flavors that "beer drinkers find pleasing".  If too much yeast is pitched, the yeast may not go through that phase and those pleasing beer flavors would not be in the beer.  I assume that description is very vague and simple but I'm curious if you could shed any of your light on that and if it makes any sense.  As a data point, when I make a lager I often pitch the entire contents of a 1.5 liter active starter into five gallons of 1.048 gravity wort and give it some pure O2 and the resulting beer is often better than subsequent batches made with the same colony of yeast that has been harvested.  I typically try to pitch about 200ml of slurry into a lager but I know that my "more yeast = more better beer" philosophy probably takes over occasionally and I overpitch.  What can you share with us on that topic?  Thank you.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25490
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Ken, I'm not the expert you summoned, but I can give you my anecdotal experience.  Year's back, when I started repitching, I would use an entire slurry for the next batch. Then I read something along the lines of what Mark is saying and I started experimenting with pitching less yeast.  Sure enough, I found I got more "pleasing" flavor and less off flavor.  I don't know how to describe it other than that.  I finally settled on using 1/3-1/2 slurry, depending on batch size and OG.  That was also when I decided we'd been sold a bill of goods with the old saw "you can't overpitch homebrew".  Like Mark has pointed out, yeast cultures are like nuclear weapons, and if you get enough healthy yeast into your wort, the rest will take care of itself.  You don't need to pitch huge amounts of yeast.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Village Taphouse

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1882
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
Ken, I'm not the expert you summoned, but I can give you my anecdotal experience.  Year's back, when I started repitching, I would use an entire slurry for the next batch. Then I read something along the lines of what Mark is saying and I started experimenting with pitching less yeast.  Sure enough, I found I got more "pleasing" flavor and less off flavor.  I don't know how to describe it other than that.  I finally settled on using 1/3-1/2 slurry, depending on batch size and OG.  That was also when I decided we'd been sold a bill of goods with the old saw "you can't overpitch homebrew".  Like Mark has pointed out, yeast cultures are like nuclear weapons, and if you get enough healthy yeast into your wort, the rest will take care of itself.  You don't need to pitch huge amounts of yeast.
Yes, I know that you and I have bounced this around and I think I am arriving at the same conclusion.  For at least the last 6 months I have been more focused on the amount of yeast I pitch.  I can't know the exact makeup of the slurry but I have also been ultra careful amount getting only clear wort into the fermenter so my yeast slurry should not contain TOO much trub but I'm sure there is some.  Some calculators suggest 180-200ml of slurry for a 5% lager with ales requiring less, clearly.  I just wondered about the specifics of what we're seeing.  It would be effortless for Saccharomyces to discuss this in a way that went right over my head but sometimes the finer details have the biggest impact and "pleasing beer flavor" is always important to me.  Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 08:59:06 am by Village Taphouse »
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Oiscout

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
Following.

Just wanna say saccharomyces changed the way  my beer tastes for the better with his advice!

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
I do not know if you have read my blog entry entitled "Have You Seen Ester?" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester), but I cover esters and higher alcohols in a decent amount of detail.  The amount of cell growth and the speed of the growth impact beer flavor because the exponential growth phase is where most of the metabolites that become beer aroma and flavor are produced.  Higher growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Faster growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Finding the balance between amount and speed of growth with one's desired taste profile is part of the art of brewing.

By the way, the use of adjuncts by the NAIL brewers increases the carbon-to-nitrogen (C:N) ratio.  Higher C:N ratios result in lower ester production. 

Offline Village Taphouse

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1882
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
I do not know if you have read my blog entry entitled "Have You Seen Ester?" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester), but I cover esters and higher alcohols in a decent amount of detail.  The amount of cell growth and the speed of the growth impact beer flavor because the exponential growth phase is where most of the metabolites that become beer aroma and flavor are produced.  Higher growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Faster growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Finding the balance between amount and speed of growth with one's desired taste profile is part of the art of brewing.

By the way, the use of adjuncts by the NAIL brewers increases the carbon-to-nitrogen (C:N) ratio.  Higher C:N ratios result in lower ester production.
Thank you.  That last part about the NAILs is very interesting.  Swill-drinkers seem to like as little flavor as possible.  The faster/higher growth rate seems like an area where some brewers could either get lost or actually have no idea at all on what's happening there.  I feel like the beers where I pitched more yeast were a little flat and dull-tasting.  The beer was fine but the WOW character was not there.  I am going to read your ester blog entry.  Thanks again for the help and direction. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Village Taphouse

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1882
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
Also:  The fact that homebrewing is often described as being easy but actually has a lot of complexities reminds me that I will always be a student of this hobby and it's what keeps me engaged.  On one hand, it would be great if it was easy to always brew stellar beer.  OTOH, all of these variables make the hobby so incredibly fun and interesting and it makes me want to make a batch of beer RIGHT NOW!  :D  Bouncing things around with other brewers is always fun and experimenting with new ideas and then sampling the beer to see the results is always fun as well.  In the end we get beer which is the best part.  Cheers Beerheads. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Charlie P stated that the reason why Cry Havoc was used to ferment all of the beer recipes in "The Complete Joy" was because he wanted to see how much difference ingredients made in beer flavor.  I would like to find house lager and ale cultures. The simple choices for me would be Wyeast 2124 and Wyeast 1056.  However, I am not interested in brewing me-too beers, and that is how I would feel if I settled on those cultures.  They are both safe, forgiving cultures that produce predictable results.  A lot of other cultures are not nearly as forgiving, but they produce beers with a lot of character.  Wyeast 2035 is a good example.  I have had beers made with that culture that were spectacular.  I have also had beers that were made with 2035 that I would like to forget.  My personal experience with that culture has been favorable, but it has been limited to pale all-malt and Pre-Pro lagers.  Wyeast 2035 along with Wyeast 2112 are members of the Christian Schmidt family.  Christian Schmidt is Siebel BRY-118.   I believe that Wyeast 2272-PC is also Christian Schmidt. As I mentioned before, the Suregork site groups Wyeast 2035 an 2112 with W-34/70, which means that the Christian Schmidt strain descends from a common parent strain with W-34/70 or descends directly from W-34/70.  That makes sense because the Christian Schmidt strain is alleged to having been as popular with local regional lager brewers on the East Coast and the Midwest as "Chico" is with craft ale brewers today.  Many of the big Midwestern brewers where using Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 (CBS 1513) with the Carlsberg flask for propagation.   I know for certain that Blatz used Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1.  Carl R. Kreitler imported Carlsberg Unterhefe No. 1 when he took over the helm as brewmaster at the National Brewing Company in Baltimore. What is interesting about Carl R. Kreitler is that he grew hops used at the brewery on his farm in Jarrettsville, Maryland.

Offline Oiscout

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
I do not know if you have read my blog entry entitled "Have You Seen Ester?" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester), but I cover esters and higher alcohols in a decent amount of detail.  The amount of cell growth and the speed of the growth impact beer flavor because the exponential growth phase is where most of the metabolites that become beer aroma and flavor are produced.  Higher growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Faster growth equals increased higher alcohol and ester production.  Finding the balance between amount and speed of growth with one's desired taste profile is part of the art of brewing.

By the way, the use of adjuncts by the NAIL brewers increases the carbon-to-nitrogen (C:N) ratio.  Higher C:N ratios result in lower ester production.
That being said would the use of adjuncts at the home brew level have the same effect on ester production as seen in the NAILS process?

I ask cause I enjoy a good cream ale but I feel mine could be a tad bit better with a smidge of complexity without throwing the kitchen sink into what's supposed to be a relative simple beer. But simple shouldn't mean boring just my thought

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
That being said would the use of adjuncts at the home brew level have the same effect on ester production as seen in the NAILS process?

I ask cause I enjoy a good cream ale but I feel mine could be a tad bit better with a smidge of complexity without throwing the kitchen sink into what's supposed to be a relative simple beer. But simple shouldn't mean boring just my thought

Yes, adjuncts can reduce ester production at the home level too.  Cream ale is a difficult style to brew.  The only traditional commercial example of the style that I have tried is Genesee Cream Ale.  That beer tastes like a slightly more complex NAIL to me.

Offline Oiscout

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
Yea genny cream is not one of my favorites to say the least, I've tried a few variations of adjuncts and haven't quite found a recipe that really stands out yet

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Saccharomyces

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1136
  • Deus ex machina
Genesee states that their yeast strain is of English origin. I know that it sounds like heresy, but you may want to try fermenting your cream ale with 2112 in the mid-to-upper sixties.  It is an interesting experiment to say the least. 

Offline Oiscout

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
Genesee states that their yeast strain is of English origin. I know that it sounds like heresy, but you may want to try fermenting your cream ale with 2112 in the mid-to-upper sixties.  It is an interesting experiment to say the least.
Will do, I've tried WLP-001 also Wyeast Denny's favorite which was a very interesting yeast but definitely not for a cream ale. Also WLP-002 which is my go to for my English style beers.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Offline Village Taphouse

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1882
  • Ken from Chicago
    • The new Mayfair Court Brewhouse
Genesee states that their yeast strain is of English origin. I know that it sounds like heresy, but you may want to try fermenting your cream ale with 2112 in the mid-to-upper sixties.  It is an interesting experiment to say the least.
This is a good idea and I may have actually tried that.  I like the character of 2112 and you can't deny its ability to floc out.  This would give you a nice, clear cream ale.  Check out this pic I found online for Cream Ale...



Obviously that beer is very clear but notice the color.  It suggests that there is something in it that might create some character.  CaraMunich or CaraVienne, Copper Malt, something to give it that dark gold color.  Whenever I see this pic it inspires me to make a cream ale.  I have BRY-97 active now so... :P
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 786
Genesee states that their yeast strain is of English origin. I know that it sounds like heresy, but you may want to try fermenting your cream ale with 2112 in the mid-to-upper sixties.  It is an interesting experiment to say the least.
This is a good idea and I may have actually tried that.  I like the character of 2112 and you can't deny its ability to floc out.  This would give you a nice, clear cream ale.  Check out this pic I found online for Cream Ale...



Obviously that beer is very clear but notice the color.  It suggests that there is something in it that might create some character.  CaraMunich or CaraVienne, Copper Malt, something to give it that dark gold color.  Whenever I see this pic it inspires me to make a cream ale.  I have BRY-97 active now so... :P
About 2 years ago I was generously gifted the recipe for a really nice local Cream Ale from Wallenpaupack Brewing.  It is my go to beer when I’m sitting way out in the bleachers, like Bob Uecker, visiting our AAA team.  They use Vienna.  I hope they don’t mind me passing this along, because a beer this good should be shared.
67% 2-row
15% Vienna
13% Flaked Maize
5% Carafoam

15 IBU’s Bravo
Kolsch/German Ale yeast.

SRM 3.3
ABV 4.5%

At least that’s the homebrew version anyway.

I’ve had two runs at this.  My first was with K-97 and that will be the last time I use K-97. My second was with BRY-97 and it came out great.  I plan on making another in mid April.