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Author Topic: 1990-era extract recipe conversion  (Read 1564 times)

Offline Andy Farke

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1990-era extract recipe conversion
« on: April 11, 2021, 09:45:06 am »
A colleague of mine (retired geology prof) has been brewing for over 30 years, and turns out some pretty great beers. She said she still dreams of a batch she made back in December 1990. It was extract, and she is hoping to convert it over to an all-grain version, which is what she brews nowadays. I normally am pretty comfortable in making these kinds of conversions, but some of the ingredients are long-discontinued. So, I wanted to see if anyone on the forum had thoughts about possible equivalents.

Here's the recipe from her notes:

Winter Rain
  • 6 lb. Telford's British Amber Dry Malt Extract
  • 1 lb. crushed dark crystal malt
  • 1 oz. Chinook hops
  • 1 oz. Tettnanger hops, end of boil
  • 2 oz. Cascade hop pellets, added to fermenter
  • 2 Doric Dry Yeast packages
Add water to reach 5 1/2 gallons. 1.041 starting gravity, 1.011 ending gravity

My big questions are:
  • What is a possible equivalent for Telford's British Amber DME? I'm guessing that I could figure out an approximation with Maris Otter, Munich, and maybe crystal 60, but was wondering if anyone out there has special insights. Telford's seems to be long gone, and there is precious little information about it that I can find!
  • Based on what was available at the time, what is a likely equivalent for "dark crystal malt"? Fawcett has a dark crystal malt that clocks in at around 70 to 80L, so I'm figuring that might be a starting point.
  • What might "Doric" yeast be? I see it mentioned from time to time, but it doesn't seem to be readily available anymore. Would Nottingham work?

Given that we're working with somewhat imprecise ingredient descriptions from 30 years ago, I realize that an exact replication may be an exercise in futility...but anything to get us at least in the ballpark for an initial attempt would be awesome! I figure that it will take a few iterations to get it close. It seems like it's likely somewhere in brown ale territory?

It's really something to think about how far ingredients and ingredient availability have come for homebrewers! Thank you to anyone who might have some thoughts here...
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2021, 10:50:12 am »
A colleague of mine (retired geology prof) has been brewing for over 30 years, and turns out some pretty great beers. She said she still dreams of a batch she made back in December 1990. It was extract, and she is hoping to convert it over to an all-grain version, which is what she brews nowadays. I normally am pretty comfortable in making these kinds of conversions, but some of the ingredients are long-discontinued. So, I wanted to see if anyone on the forum had thoughts about possible equivalents.

Here's the recipe from her notes:

Winter Rain
  • 6 lb. Telford's British Amber Dry Malt Extract
  • 1 lb. crushed dark crystal malt
  • 1 oz. Chinook hops
  • 1 oz. Tettnanger hops, end of boil
  • 2 oz. Cascade hop pellets, added to fermenter
  • 2 Doric Dry Yeast packages
Add water to reach 5 1/2 gallons. 1.041 starting gravity, 1.011 ending gravity

My big questions are:
  • What is a possible equivalent for Telford's British Amber DME? I'm guessing that I could figure out an approximation with Maris Otter, Munich, and maybe crystal 60, but was wondering if anyone out there has special insights. Telford's seems to be long gone, and there is precious little information about it that I can find!
  • Based on what was available at the time, what is a likely equivalent for "dark crystal malt"? Fawcett has a dark crystal malt that clocks in at around 70 to 80L, so I'm figuring that might be a starting point.
  • What might "Doric" yeast be? I see it mentioned from time to time, but it doesn't seem to be readily available anymore. Would Nottingham work?

Given that we're working with somewhat imprecise ingredient descriptions from 30 years ago, I realize that an exact replication may be an exercise in futility...but anything to get us at least in the ballpark for an initial attempt would be awesome! I figure that it will take a few iterations to get it close. It seems like it's likely somewhere in brown ale territory?

It's really something to think about how far ingredients and ingredient availability have come for homebrewers! Thank you to anyone who might have some thoughts here...

i see retro recipes sometimes posted, and people want to "recreate" them. well, imho you will not be able to recreate a 1990 homebrew.

hops have changed a lot, chinook's characteristics change from region to region and year to year i know for sure, tett and cascade i can assume as well.

so you've then got some amber DME (did they have DME back then? i thought it was all LME) and a dark crystal malt. well, i would bet money that the crystal malt would be within standard dark crystal specs from nowadays, maybe 6 row though. the DME? who knows, but i doubt there would be any special taste quality from 1990 malt extract you would want to capture. you want to convert the DME to all-grain? I guess 90% 2row and 10% munich?

doric yeast? there seem to be references to it from earlier years of internet homebrew forums: https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeasts/doric-ale/ https://www.winemakeri.com/index.php/winemakeri-brands/doric-beer

just some generic homebrew stuff. muntons/windsor/edme i guess?

so a 1.041 "amber beer" with a lb of crystal and a bunch of hops fermented with an old-fashioned yeast.

lol go for it if you want to make this. but i remember the taste of my first homebrews and i can't see any reason to revisit them.

Offline Andy Farke

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2021, 01:36:29 pm »
i see retro recipes sometimes posted, and people want to "recreate" them. well, imho you will not be able to recreate a 1990 homebrew.

hops have changed a lot, chinook's characteristics change from region to region and year to year i know for sure, tett and cascade i can assume as well.

Agreed 100 percent. I don't think anyone is under an illusion that this will be an exact replication, for all of the reasons you mention...and my friend admits that some of her fondness with it is with the accompanying memories! But...we still want to try and get *something* that is vaguely in the ballpark. A new and improved version, that captures what made it good at the time, and ditching things like potential extract twang!

so you've then got some amber DME (did they have DME back then? i thought it was all LME)
....
the DME? who knows, but i doubt there would be any special taste quality from 1990 malt extract you would want to capture. you want to convert the DME to all-grain? I guess 90% 2row and 10% munich?

I was similarly skeptical that it was DME, but her contemporary notes very clearly say "dry malt extract," and in my searches it seems that Telford's was a DME available back at the time. I suspect it may have made for a marginally better extract beer than ancient LME! My current guess is to try 80% Maris Otter, 10% Munich, 10% crystal 60 (or thereabouts).

doric yeast? there seem to be references to it from earlier years of internet homebrew forums: https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeasts/doric-ale/ https://www.winemakeri.com/index.php/winemakeri-brands/doric-beer

just some generic homebrew stuff. muntons/windsor/edme i guess?

Yeah, I ran across some of those too...Generic homebrew yeast seems like a good description. Will probably trying Windsor or Nottingham dry yeast.

In any case, thanks for the input. It really is a mystery what some of those old-school ingredients were!
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Website: http://www.andybrews.com
Twitter: @andyfarke
Facebook: Farke Brewing

Offline Megary

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2021, 04:44:48 pm »
I agree with fredthecat that you are in an uphill battle trying to recreate nostalgia.  I’ll bet the beer you end up making will be vastly better than the original and it still won’t erase memory bias.  All the luck though!

But I do love the fact that you are trying.  That’s just another reason why this hobby is so much damn fun.

Offline majorvices

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2021, 06:09:55 am »
FWIW I have been brewing since 1995 and there was DME and it was mentioned in homebrewing books then too.

I would use Maris Otter in place of the "Amber" DME even though there was most likely some crystal malt in that --  looks like there is already plenty of crystal malt in the recipe already. I remember the Doric yeast too but I never tried it. I'd go with either US05 or S-04
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 06:12:43 am by majorvices »

Offline kramerog

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2021, 01:39:19 pm »
I wonder if the Doric yeast was taped to the the malt extract? Some brands provided free yeast with malt extract. It was usually a mistake to use the free yeast.

Offline denny

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2021, 02:09:22 pm »
I wonder if the Doric yeast was taped to the the malt extract? Some brands provided free yeast with malt extract. It was usually a mistake to use the free yeast.

IIRC, Doric was a Lallemand yeast.  Windsor might be in the ballpark.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2021, 02:26:19 pm »
IIRC, Doric was a Lallemand yeast.  Windsor might be in the ballpark.

Maybe, but is was as hit or miss as any of they other dry yeast cultures.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 02:37:23 pm »
I wrote the posting  below offline last night.


I have been brewing since 1993 and personally believe that your friend may be suffering from nostalgic amnesia. That being said, we need to put things into context.  At that point in time, home brewing supplies were a cottage industry in the United States.  Most local home brewing shops were part-time endeavors or small add-ons to existing business like one still sees in non-metro parts of the county today.   What this situation means in layman’s terms is that very few ingredients were fresh and knowledge about how to keep and use them was in short supply.

As far as to dry malt extract, we were pretty much limited to British offerings. The bulk of the extract sold at that point in time, dry or liquid, would have been from Munton & Fison (I am fairly certain that Munton & Fison produced extract for other labels).  Briess did not enter the malt extract business until later in the nineities. 

Please do not get me started as to the state of hops at that point in time.  Hops were usually sold in zip lock bags that were displayed on normal store shelves.  I credit Dave Wills and than later Mark Garetz for improving this problem by providing the amatuer brewing community with direct sources of hops that were not cast-offs from the industrial brewers.

Now, the dark crystal malt was more than likely Briess 6-row caramel 80.  If it was not Briess caramal 80, it had to be Munton & Fison dark crystal, but that was a much darker crystal malt.

If we look at the typical non-100% pale malt extract that was coming out of the UK at that point time, it was more than likey 90% - 95% pale malt, 5 - 10% crystal/coloring malt.  The dominant barley cultivar would have been Halcyon.  Halcyon is still available from Thomas Fawcett (TF).  It was bred from Maris Otter, but produces a less sweet wort.  I would not use Maris Otter for this recipe because of the large amount of crystal malt between the amber extract and the dark crystal. This beer was your typical two pounds of crystal malt malt extract recipe.  I would use TF Pearl if you cannot get Halcyon or it is going to be cloyingly sweet after drinking beers that were formulated as all-grain beer from the start.

What was the original gravity?  Well, DME contributes 45 points per pound per gallon (PPG).  DME is also hygroscopic; therefore, it tends to suck in moisture if not in an air-tight package in a high humidty environment, so the yield could be potentially smaller. We can look at a maximum of 25 PPG for the crystal malt.  A lot of extract recipes were not formulated with leaving break and hops behind in the kettle because they were concentrated boils, so we can assume the maximum volume was 5 gallons.   Given that information, we are looking at a (6 * 45 + 25) / 5 / 1000 + 1 = 1.059 beer, of which the beer would have probably had an O.G. of  6 * 45 / 5 / 1000 + 1 = 1.054 without the dark crystal.  That is the part of the recipe for which we need to formulate a grist.

total_gravity_points_from_extract = 45 * 5 = 225

With that information presented, let’s give formulating an all-grain recipe for this extract recipe a shot assuming an extraction rate of 27 PPG for the entire grist (an efficiency of approximately 75%) and an end of boil volume of 5.75 gallons to allow for loses of 0.5 gallons of volume to trub in the kettle and 0.25 gallons of volume to break and yeast in the fermenter, yielding full 5 gallons to a soda keg.

total_gravity_points_for_dme_equivalent =  5.75 * 54 = 310.5

pounds_of_grist_for_dme_equivalent = 310.5 / 27 =  11.5

First attempt at the grist for the DME portion:

Pounds of TF Halcyon malt (90%)  = 11.5 * 0.9 =  10.35lbs
Pounds of TF Crystal II  (10%)  = 11.5 * 0.1 =  1.15bs


As to the hops, we can leave the late addition measurements as is, but we need to ballpark the Chinook addition. Chinook has an AA that ranges in the 12-14% range, but it does not have the best hop storage index.  To account for the poor storage conditons hops suffered during that period, lets assume that the hops had lost 30% of their AA rating by the time they were used.  Furthermore, let’s take the lower end of the AA range, which yields 0.7 * 12 = 8.4 alpha acid units.  We can assume that the Chinook hops we purchase today are at least 12% AA; therefore, we are looking at 8.4 / 12 = 0.7 ounces (approximately 20g).

As far to yeast, well, let’s not go there. Life is better that way. Doric was about as hit or miss as any other dry yeast culture at that time.  I would suggest using a Whitbread B offering (Wyeast 1098, WLP007, or S-04) or Nottingham, if dry is required (Nottingham is probably a better choice because it is more attentuative).

Putting it all together

Winter Rain

Grist:

10.35lbs TF Halcyon malt (90%) 
1.15lbs TF Crystal II  (10%) 
+
1lb TF Dark Crystal I

Hops:

0.7oz (20g) Chinook, 60 minutes
1oz Tettanger, end of boil (a.k.a. knock-out addition)
2oz Cascade, dry hop in primary

Yeast:

Whitbread B or Nottingham

I personally would not waste 5 to 6 hours of my time on this beer, but it should help your friend realize how much sweeter most home brew was during that period of time as well as how time has given a lot of us nostalgic anemesia. The beer was probably a good extract beer for 1990, but it will not hold up to a modern all-grain beer that takes advantage of a blend of pale and darker colored base and specialty malts addition to a smaller amount of crystal.  Back then, caramel/crystal malt was the primary way to infuse fresh malt flavor in a beer without resorting to mini or partial mashing.  That is why so many of the early all-grain recipes contain so much crystal malt. They were basically conversions of older extract recipes.

Offline chumley

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Re: 1990-era extract recipe conversion
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2021, 02:11:04 pm »
I just read this and it made me smile, as I started brewing in 1990. Yes, they had DME then, and I remember the Telford brand, but I can't say I used it. I did use Doric ale yeast and found it to be pretty clean. I agree that Windsor would be a good substitute.