[beersk]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

[Village Taphouse]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

Yes, you just nicely summed up what is in my head right now.  Pay closer attention to boil vigor and hot break and check boil pH and adjust when/if necessary.  I am going to start there and report back.  First stop:  Saturday's brewday and a pale ale with Amarillo and Citra.  Cheers and thanks again. 

[HopDen]

What is BtB?

[Village Taphouse]

What is BtB?

Brewtan B. 

[BrewBama]

What is BtB?

Brewtan B.

It’s a gallotannin that chelates (binds) divalent cations (cations with a 2+ after their symbol).

Those metals have been identified as a pathway for a reaction that cascades into oxidation.

The BtB keeps that from happening in the mash and, if any copper is used, also in the boil.

There are other pathways for oxidation but it helps tamp down (not necessarily eliminate) one.

As an added side effect, it also helps with clarity.

Edited for clarification

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[HopDen]

Now I know.
Thanks!

[beersk]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

Yes, you just nicely summed up what is in my head right now.  Pay closer attention to boil vigor and hot break and check boil pH and adjust when/if necessary.  I am going to start there and report back.  First stop:  Saturday's brewday and a pale ale with Amarillo and Citra.  Cheers and thanks again. 

Sounds like a good plan. For what it's worth, I do low o2 brewing for my half batches and high splash for my 5 gallon batches. I literally dump my sparge water into the mash tun for the batch sparge. I don't know if anyone really does that anymore, but I suspect it's common. I get clear beer with both methods, but I seem to have to vorlauf less when I do low o2.

[Village Taphouse]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

Yes, you just nicely summed up what is in my head right now.  Pay closer attention to boil vigor and hot break and check boil pH and adjust when/if necessary.  I am going to start there and report back.  First stop:  Saturday's brewday and a pale ale with Amarillo and Citra.  Cheers and thanks again. 

Sounds like a good plan. For what it's worth, I do low o2 brewing for my half batches and high splash for my 5 gallon batches. I literally dump my sparge water into the mash tun for the batch sparge. I don't know if anyone really does that anymore, but I suspect it's common. I get clear beer with both methods, but I seem to have to vorlauf less when I do low o2.

Before any of the LO talk, I literally stirred and splashed my way through the brewday.  Dumping strike water and sparge water into the MT, stirring like crazy, etc.  Stirring during the chill too although I still do that but with less intensity.

Another conclusion one could reach by reading this thread is that if you do enough things incorrectly, gel and biofine won't work and if you do everything properly, you may not even need finings at all.  I assume that's not a binary thing either... there are shades of gray between the two which lead to "slightly clear" beer or "mostly clear" beer, etc. 

[BrewBama]

I think you’re also on to something as a contributing factor: the inconsistency of the gas burner.

Many of the folks here use all-in-one systems or other electric gizmo to boil. Electric brewing leads to consistent power applied from brew to brew. That consistent power makes for a certain very predictable boil intensity, hot break, boil off, post boil volume and gravity.

I put the coal to my induction cooktop (3.5 kW) until I see the foam, I skim the crud just before it breaks, then I reduce to cruising speed (2.4 kW) for the remainder of the boil. I would characterize my boil vigor as a soft rolling boil. More than a simmer but not Mt Vesuvius.



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[beersk]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

Yes, you just nicely summed up what is in my head right now.  Pay closer attention to boil vigor and hot break and check boil pH and adjust when/if necessary.  I am going to start there and report back.  First stop:  Saturday's brewday and a pale ale with Amarillo and Citra.  Cheers and thanks again. 

Sounds like a good plan. For what it's worth, I do low o2 brewing for my half batches and high splash for my 5 gallon batches. I literally dump my sparge water into the mash tun for the batch sparge. I don't know if anyone really does that anymore, but I suspect it's common. I get clear beer with both methods, but I seem to have to vorlauf less when I do low o2.

Before any of the LO talk, I literally stirred and splashed my way through the brewday.  Dumping strike water and sparge water into the MT, stirring like crazy, etc.  Stirring during the chill too although I still do that but with less intensity.

Another conclusion one could reach by reading this thread is that if you do enough things incorrectly, gel and biofine won't work and if you do everything properly, you may not even need finings at all.  I assume that's not a binary thing either... there are shades of gray between the two which lead to "slightly clear" beer or "mostly clear" beer, etc. 

Generally I think less splashing is good, I don't think it'll be a factor in beer clarity however. I still dump my sparge water into the mashtun for batch sparge...I just don't have another way and the beers are fine oxidized messes hehe nah, let's not go there. I agree with your statement though - If you do most things right, additional fining is not necessary. I kind of see those as tools to get your beer prettier faster more than anything else.

I think you’re also on to something as a contributing factor: the inconsistency of the gas burner.

Many of the folks here use all-in-one systems or other electric gizmo to boil. Electric brewing leads to consistent power applied from brew to brew. That consistent power makes for a certain very predictable boil intensity, hot break, boil off, post boil volume and gravity.

I put the coal to my induction cooktop (3.5 kW) until I see the foam, I skim the crud just before it breaks, then I reduce to cruising speed (2.4 kW) for the remainder of the boil. I would characterize my boil vigor as a soft rolling boil. More than a simmer but not Mt Vesuvius.



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That sounds reasonable. I think with my stovetop I get a pretty consistent rolling boil. But I'm not sure even that is a major factor necessarily in beer clarity. As long as it's moving on the surface, there should be good enough hot break formation. I mean, I remember the days when I boiled hard and I had to watch out or it would boil over. Nowadays, I don't boil so hard and it foams up a little in the beginning of the boil, but it's not at risk of boiling over. I still skim the junk from the top of the boil throughout though.

[Village Taphouse]

There was something earlier in this thread about polyphenols and how they might be reduced with better hot break and might stick around otherwise.  They also contribute to haze, specifically chill haze.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is my issue.  I found this:

Polyphenols are derived directly from malt and hops and are often involved in haze formation in finished beer. See chill haze, colloidal haze, and haze. They have no aroma, and their major gustatory impact is a perception of astringency. Astringency is not technically a taste sensation, that is, it is not perceived by the taste buds. Rather, it is a so-called chemesthetic sensation, which is essentially tactile, because it is perceived by the trigeminal nerve. Chemically, this astringency is the result of polyphenols combining with proline-rich proteins in our saliva to form insoluble complexes. Usually, proteins in the mouth perform a lubricating function on the mouth’s surfaces. When polyphenols rob the palate of lubrication, the mouth feels rough and a mouth-puckering sensation is perceived. Whereas astringency from tannin can be considered a positive aspect of some wines, polyphenol astringency in beer tends to clash with hop bitterness and is rarely appreciated.

I might be reaching a little bit because I have not focused on this in the past but a lot of this sounds familiar in the beers that have my issue and it sounds like one more case of "wimpy boil" unless I am misunderstanding the concept.  I might tell myself "The beer is not very clear.  The beer tastes okay but..." and that's exactly what that quote is describing.  I'll mention again that this is new.  I have been doing 30-minute boils for many years now and have made many, many good, clear batches of beer so it's not that.  But a 30-minute, low-vigor boil sounds like it might qualify for a polyphenol-rich beer.  If my brain has run off in the wrong direction, please tell me. 

[denny]

Keep in mind that malt will vary from lot to lot, even if you buy the same brand and type.  Do you get a lot analysis when you buy a bag of malt?

I do not bother looking at the lot analysis mostly because I don't know what I'm looking at nor would I know how to pivot based on that information.  Also, the fact that I could have a clear beer and a cloudy beer from the same sack of malt tells me that the problem would probably still occur regardless of the sack of malt.  Is that reasonable?  If two batches from the same sack could be so different then the issue is not because I'm not looking closely at the lot data. 

Yep, in that case, probably pH, boil vigor, and yeast in your case being the main factors. I'd say try going back to your previous way of brewing, don't worry about boil vigor, if heat stress is a thing, it might not be noticeable to you and it might only be a factor if you're brewing full on low o2. Also, try adjusting the pH at the end of the boil (start with 1mL of lactic acid). I don't know that that will fix clarity issues, but certainly helps with beer flavor, especially in lagers where the yeast doesn't lower the pH as effectively as ale yeast.

Yes, you just nicely summed up what is in my head right now.  Pay closer attention to boil vigor and hot break and check boil pH and adjust when/if necessary.  I am going to start there and report back.  First stop:  Saturday's brewday and a pale ale with Amarillo and Citra.  Cheers and thanks again. 

Sounds like a good plan. For what it's worth, I do low o2 brewing for my half batches and high splash for my 5 gallon batches. I literally dump my sparge water into the mash tun for the batch sparge. I don't know if anyone really does that anymore, but I suspect it's common. I get clear beer with both methods, but I seem to have to vorlauf less when I do low o2.

FWIW, even though I've switched to a Grainfather, I still do basically the same sparge method.

[Village Taphouse]

One other piece of information I may not have shared:  I mentioned a helles I made last Saturday that had very good and very noticeable hot break.  The boil was a bit more vigorous but I also used ~25% distilled water in that batch.  I occasionally do this just to soften the beer a little bit although I had not done that in quite awhile.  This would lower my numbers including bicarb and TDS and I do wonder if this has any impact on things.

[beersk]

Ken,

You mentioning that you do 30 minute boils reminds me... I was doing 30 minute boils for much of the year in 2020. I would do 5 gallon batches, use a floating dip tube and biofine, but always always always, the last about 1/2 gallon would be hazy. HAZY! That's how I knew the beer was almost gone. I chalked it up to the chill haze settling out, but not completely. I never really found an explanation for it. The beer would be CLEAR until that last 1/2 gallon.
And if I used a regular dip tube, the beer was hazy throughout the life of the keg. I really do thing 30 vs 60 minute boil length matters in terms of clarity. It gives the proteins more time to coagulate and when I switched back to 60 minute boils, my issue went away (unless I lifted the keg to check how much was left, which I've since stopped doing).

[Village Taphouse]

Ken,

You mentioning that you do 30 minute boils reminds me... I was doing 30 minute boils for much of the year in 2020. I would do 5 gallon batches, use a floating dip tube and biofine, but always always always, the last about 1/2 gallon would be hazy. HAZY! That's how I knew the beer was almost gone. I chalked it up to the chill haze settling out, but not completely. I never really found an explanation for it. The beer would be CLEAR until that last 1/2 gallon.
And if I used a regular dip tube, the beer was hazy throughout the life of the keg. I really do thing 30 vs 60 minute boil length matters in terms of clarity. It gives the proteins more time to coagulate and when I switched back to 60 minute boils, my issue went away (unless I lifted the keg to check how much was left, which I've since stopped doing).

That seems reasonable but it doesn't explain that the majority of my beers with 30m boils have been clear.  If you have seen any of the pics I have posted in the PINT thread, I do get good clarity most of the time.  So I wonder if the LO guys dropped the 30m boil in favor of a 60m and then suggested that the boil rate be toned down which might be fine for a 60m boil (in terms of clarity) but a 30m, low-vigor boil might be an issue.  I know I'm a broken record on this but it still checks all of those boxes and the timeline checks out.  On my upcoming batches I'm going to boil like I'm getting paid for it and see if I get consistent clarity on those batches.  If I boil with good intensity and still have some haze, then I'm full of foam.