[beersk]

Ken,

You mentioning that you do 30 minute boils reminds me... I was doing 30 minute boils for much of the year in 2020. I would do 5 gallon batches, use a floating dip tube and biofine, but always always always, the last about 1/2 gallon would be hazy. HAZY! That's how I knew the beer was almost gone. I chalked it up to the chill haze settling out, but not completely. I never really found an explanation for it. The beer would be CLEAR until that last 1/2 gallon.
And if I used a regular dip tube, the beer was hazy throughout the life of the keg. I really do thing 30 vs 60 minute boil length matters in terms of clarity. It gives the proteins more time to coagulate and when I switched back to 60 minute boils, my issue went away (unless I lifted the keg to check how much was left, which I've since stopped doing).

That seems reasonable but it doesn't explain that the majority of my beers with 30m boils have been clear.  If you have seen any of the pics I have posted in the PINT thread, I do get good clarity most of the time.  So I wonder if the LO guys dropped the 30m boil in favor of a 60m and then suggested that the boil rate be toned down which might be fine for a 60m boil (in terms of clarity) but a 30m, low-vigor boil might be an issue.  I know I'm a broken record on this but it still checks all of those boxes and the timeline checks out.  On my upcoming batches I'm going to boil like I'm getting paid for it and see if I get consistent clarity on those batches.  If I boil with good intensity and still have some haze, then I'm full of foam. 

Sounds good to me. I don't know if they've changed their tune or not, but I remember when 30 minute boils were a no-no for low o2 because of potential for increased DMS. I never had an issue with non-low o2. But too scared to try it for low o2 I guess. But there does seem to be some chemical reaction going on there that makes for clearer wort and clearer beer than I see with non-low o2 high splash brewing. Not sure why.

[hmbrw4life]

Ken,

You mentioning that you do 30 minute boils reminds me... I was doing 30 minute boils for much of the year in 2020. I would do 5 gallon batches, use a floating dip tube and biofine, but always always always, the last about 1/2 gallon would be hazy. HAZY! That's how I knew the beer was almost gone. I chalked it up to the chill haze settling out, but not completely. I never really found an explanation for it. The beer would be CLEAR until that last 1/2 gallon.
And if I used a regular dip tube, the beer was hazy throughout the life of the keg. I really do thing 30 vs 60 minute boil length matters in terms of clarity. It gives the proteins more time to coagulate and when I switched back to 60 minute boils, my issue went away (unless I lifted the keg to check how much was left, which I've since stopped doing).

That seems reasonable but it doesn't explain that the majority of my beers with 30m boils have been clear.  If you have seen any of the pics I have posted in the PINT thread, I do get good clarity most of the time.  So I wonder if the LO guys dropped the 30m boil in favor of a 60m and then suggested that the boil rate be toned down which might be fine for a 60m boil (in terms of clarity) but a 30m, low-vigor boil might be an issue. I know I'm a broken record on this but it still checks all of those boxes and the timeline checks out.  On my upcoming batches I'm going to boil like I'm getting paid for it and see if I get consistent clarity on those batches.  If I boil with good intensity and still have some haze, then I'm full of foam. 

Sounds good to me. I don't know if they've changed their tune or not, but I remember when 30 minute boils were a no-no for low o2 because of potential for increased DMS. I never had an issue with non-low o2. But too scared to try it for low o2 I guess. But there does seem to be some chemical reaction going on there that makes for clearer wort and clearer beer than I see with non-low o2 high splash brewing. Not sure why.

Looking back on all documentation of low oxygen brewing, 30 minutes was never started, inferred or used by those guys. So I don't think it's a matter of them dropping it persay..

Most likely non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids on the clarity subject.

[Village Taphouse]

Looking back on all documentation of low oxygen brewing, 30 minutes was never started, inferred or used by those guys. So I don't think it's a matter of them dropping it persay..

Most likely non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids on the clarity subject.

I never actually heard the LO guys suggest a 30 (in fact I heard them say not to do one) but their approach contained some adjustments so for all I know they may have embraced it and then found that it was more trouble than benefit and switched back to a 60. 

So what to do about the non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids?  Something as simple as a stronger boil or is it something else?

Thanks for the reply.   

[hmbrw4life]

Looking back on all documentation of low oxygen brewing, 30 minutes was never started, inferred or used by those guys. So I don't think it's a matter of them dropping it persay..

Most likely non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids on the clarity subject.

I never actually heard the LO guys suggest a 30 (in fact I heard them say not to do one) but their approach contained some adjustments so for all I know they may have embraced it and then found that it was more trouble than benefit and switched back to a 60. 

So what to do about the non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids?  Something as simple as a stronger boil or is it something else?

Thanks for the reply.   

I can't speak for them (they can't speak for them here either), but going all the way back to 2016(to current day), 60 minute boils are recommended. Thats all I got.

I was speaking to beersk in regard to this..
"But there does seem to be some chemical reaction going on there that makes for clearer wort and clearer beer than I see with non-low o2 high splash brewing. Not sure why."

In regards to you, why not brew one batch with a 60min boil to compare. It's only going to take 30 minutes of your time to see if the boil is causing it. Seams easy and straightforward to me.
 

[denny]

Looking back on all documentation of low oxygen brewing, 30 minutes was never started, inferred or used by those guys. So I don't think it's a matter of them dropping it persay..

Most likely non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids on the clarity subject.

I never actually heard the LO guys suggest a 30 (in fact I heard them say not to do one) but their approach contained some adjustments so for all I know they may have embraced it and then found that it was more trouble than benefit and switched back to a 60. 

So what to do about the non-oxidized polyphenols, fats and lipids?  Something as simple as a stronger boil or is it something else?

Thanks for the reply.   

I can't speak for them (they can't speak for them here either), but going all the way back to 2016(to current day), 60 minute boils are recommended. Thats all I got.

I was speaking to beersk in regard to this..
"But there does seem to be some chemical reaction going on there that makes for clearer wort and clearer beer than I see with non-low o2 high splash brewing. Not sure why."

In regards to you, why not brew one batch with a 60min boil to compare. It's only going to take 30 minutes of your time to see if the buoil is causing it. Seams easy and straightforward to me.

Absolutely.  Your own data is all that really matters.  Why not find out?

[Village Taphouse]

Guys:  I made a pale ale today with 47.5% Avangard Pale Malt, 47.5% Wheat and 5% C60.  There were 2 ounces of hops added to the WP too.  I boiled vigorously but I did not see as much of a hot break as I did last week with the helles (80% pils).  Will pilsner create more "hot break" than regular 2-row or wheat?  I was expecting to see it but did not.  I also checked the pH with about 15 minutes left and it was 5.25.  I added 1ml of 88% lactic acid and when I was transferring to the fermenter I grabbed a sample and to my surprise it was 5.23.  So it looks like I would need more.  I already use about 6ml of acid between my strike and sparge... is there a limit to how much lactic acid should be used?  I thought it was 1ml per gallon before you would have a negative flavor impact and I brew with a total of 7.5 gallons and I used 7ml of acid today between strike, sparge and kettle.  Thanks & cheers.

[denny]

AFAIK, hot break is dependent on protein content and pH.

[hmbrw4life]

Higher boil pH = bigger more clumpy break. It also has better hop isomerization, and faster DMS removal. Bigger break flocs faster and better = clearer wort, and beer.

Low boil pH = the opposite.


Higher finishing boil pH >5.1 = finings not working optimally. Finings also need to be added at the proper time(which there is).


TLDR: Boil higher, knockout lower.

[Village Taphouse]

Higher boil pH = bigger more clumpy break. It also has better hop isomerization, and faster DMS removal. Bigger break flocs faster and better = clearer wort, and beer.

Low boil pH = the opposite.


Higher finishing boil pH >5.1 = finings not working optimally. Finings also need to be added at the proper time(which there is).


TLDR: Boil higher, knockout lower.

Interesting.  Thanks again.  The pH of this beer was on the lower side but surprisingly even when I made a kettle addition of acid it barely had an impact (5.25 to 5.23) so I'll have to fine-tune that a little better next time.

[BrewBama]

‘Higher’ and ‘lower’ are kinda obscure measurements. Higher/lower than what?



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[hmbrw4life]

‘Higher’ and ‘lower’ are kinda obscure measurements. Higher/lower than what?



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Sorry, I assumed we all knew boil ph's, thats my fault. Good call out.


5.6 being on the high end, 5.1 on the low.
Closer to 5.6 = higher
Closer to 5.1 = lower

[BrewBama]

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[hmbrw4life]

The pH of this beer was on the lower side but surprisingly even when I made a kettle addition of acid it barely had an impact (5.25 to 5.23) so I'll have to fine-tune that a little better next time.

Buffering of the wort is what impacts this. Normally this means the beer has a decent amount of hardness (temporary or permanent), that is buffering that ph shift.

A water that is made to have a pale ale type profile, will take more acid than say a straight RO water to make pH shift.

Also, you are the only one can answer the lactic taste threshold question.

[Village Taphouse]

My water has relatively modest numbers except for bicarb... that's 140ppm.  With 4ml of acid in my mash I can get my mash pH into the 5.3 to 5.4 range.  But this past Saturday was the first time I made a kettle addition of acid so that was new.  I expected to see the finished pH around 5.0 but it was 5.23.  When I measured the pH with 15 minutes left in the boil it was 5.25 which is why I said it was on the lower end.  So it sounds like I should get my mash pH correct and possibly get my sparge pH into a good range but maybe keep it a little higher so the boil pH would be more in the 5.5 range and THEN attempt to get it down closer to 5.0 prior to adding whirfloc or this Kick Carageenan I have been using.  I have decent control over all of that but it's absolutely something I have not done... at least on purpose.   

[BrewBama]

+1. I can attest to that. I can add 1/8 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid to 5 gal distilled water (pre strike) and the pH drops like a brick because there’s nothing to buffer it.



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