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Author Topic: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...  (Read 10834 times)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2021, 08:45:33 am »
+1. I can attest to that. I can add 1/8 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid to 5 gal distilled water (pre strike) and the pH drops like a brick because there’s nothing to buffer it.
I'll have to be a little more heavy handed with my water but I think it's manageable. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2021, 07:01:04 pm »
Guys:  I'm sharing some info from today's brew session.  I made my Bordertown Dark Lager. SRM of maybe 12-14. I got my mash pH to 5.42 and left it there. I also added slightly less acid to my sparge (usually about 2ml and this was maybe 1¾ml. I did this to keep the boil pH in the mid 5s). When I took the pH of the sparge it was 5.12. I'm really not sure how that's possible since I used less acid but the beer is dark so maybe the dark grains lowered the pH naturally. I thought of raising the pH with baking soda and decided against it. I boiled and checked the pH of the boil with about 10 minutes left... 5.27. That means I boiled a little too low. I added 1.25ml of acid (more than last week) and my final wort pH only went to 5.23. That part is stumping me. I can control the boil pH but how can 1.25ml of acid basically not make a dent in the wort's pH? I did not get the giant break material "flakes" but the wort did drop super bright and I got crystal clear wort into the fermenter. Also, I did not use the boil BTB addition today... does BTB lower pH? It's a tannic acid so I'll assume YES.  More research is needed. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline beersk

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2021, 09:35:39 am »
Guys:  I'm sharing some info from today's brew session.  I made my Bordertown Dark Lager. SRM of maybe 12-14. I got my mash pH to 5.42 and left it there. I also added slightly less acid to my sparge (usually about 2ml and this was maybe 1¾ml. I did this to keep the boil pH in the mid 5s). When I took the pH of the sparge it was 5.12. I'm really not sure how that's possible since I used less acid but the beer is dark so maybe the dark grains lowered the pH naturally. I thought of raising the pH with baking soda and decided against it. I boiled and checked the pH of the boil with about 10 minutes left... 5.27. That means I boiled a little too low. I added 1.25ml of acid (more than last week) and my final wort pH only went to 5.23. That part is stumping me. I can control the boil pH but how can 1.25ml of acid basically not make a dent in the wort's pH? I did not get the giant break material "flakes" but the wort did drop super bright and I got crystal clear wort into the fermenter. Also, I did not use the boil BTB addition today... does BTB lower pH? It's a tannic acid so I'll assume YES.  More research is needed. 
It would seem to me that BtB would have an negligible effect on pH.
Jesse

Offline denny

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2021, 11:08:20 am »
Guys:  I'm sharing some info from today's brew session.  I made my Bordertown Dark Lager. SRM of maybe 12-14. I got my mash pH to 5.42 and left it there. I also added slightly less acid to my sparge (usually about 2ml and this was maybe 1¾ml. I did this to keep the boil pH in the mid 5s). When I took the pH of the sparge it was 5.12. I'm really not sure how that's possible since I used less acid but the beer is dark so maybe the dark grains lowered the pH naturally. I thought of raising the pH with baking soda and decided against it. I boiled and checked the pH of the boil with about 10 minutes left... 5.27. That means I boiled a little too low. I added 1.25ml of acid (more than last week) and my final wort pH only went to 5.23. That part is stumping me. I can control the boil pH but how can 1.25ml of acid basically not make a dent in the wort's pH? I did not get the giant break material "flakes" but the wort did drop super bright and I got crystal clear wort into the fermenter. Also, I did not use the boil BTB addition today... does BTB lower pH? It's a tannic acid so I'll assume YES.  More research is needed. 
It would seem to me that BtB would have an negligible effect on pH.

I agree.  I think I even remember discussing it with Joe Formanek.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2021, 11:46:36 am »
Thanks guys.  I feel like I need to use less acid in the mash and sparge to keep the boil kettle pH around 5.5 and then use MORE acid during the boil to get it closer to 5.0.  I realize that the drop in pH from acid is not linear... So adding 2ml instead of 1ml is not necessarily going to "double" the pH-dropping power... it could be more than that so I am taking this slowly so I don't end up making a batch of vinegar.  No brewing this weekend as all of my kegs are full but I will probably be making another gold lager in 2 weeks and I will see what happens. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline beersk

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2021, 02:52:12 pm »
Thanks guys.  I feel like I need to use less acid in the mash and sparge to keep the boil kettle pH around 5.5 and then use MORE acid during the boil to get it closer to 5.0.  I realize that the drop in pH from acid is not linear... So adding 2ml instead of 1ml is not necessarily going to "double" the pH-dropping power... it could be more than that so I am taking this slowly so I don't end up making a batch of vinegar.  No brewing this weekend as all of my kegs are full but I will probably be making another gold lager in 2 weeks and I will see what happens. 
Best of luck to you, good chum! Don't drink too much now...
Jesse

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2021, 09:15:31 am »
An update:  I started using Biofine about 5 weeks ago.  When the beer was ready to transfer to the keg (at basement temps), I injected about 30ml of Biofine into the tubing prior to starting the transfer.  The Biofine would hit the bottom of the keg and the beer would be transferred on top, mixing well with the beer.  Every one of the beers I sampled where I used Biofine is really, really cloudy.  One of those kegs is about half full.  Another has had about 10 beers tapped from it.  Others have been sampled with a cobra tap.  Can anyone see a scientific reason why the Biofine would not work?  Something in my water or something with my processes?  I am in the process of making a big batch of gel solution to see if I can clear these kegs up.  I tried a similar Biofine-like product years ago and had the same results.  Cheers guys.
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline HopDen

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2021, 10:06:39 am »
An update:  I started using Biofine about 5 weeks ago.  When the beer was ready to transfer to the keg (at basement temps), I injected about 30ml of Biofine into the tubing prior to starting the transfer.  The Biofine would hit the bottom of the keg and the beer would be transferred on top, mixing well with the beer.  Every one of the beers I sampled where I used Biofine is really, really cloudy.  One of those kegs is about half full.  Another has had about 10 beers tapped from it.  Others have been sampled with a cobra tap.  Can anyone see a scientific reason why the Biofine would not work?  Something in my water or something with my processes?  I am in the process of making a big batch of gel solution to see if I can clear these kegs up.  I tried a similar Biofine-like product years ago and had the same results.  Cheers guys.

One thing I can think of is that you are transferring the beer at room temp. When I transfer, my beers are at 33-35* and I transfer beer on top of the biofine which was added to purged kegs before transfer. I can't say without a doubt that may be your issue. I have only used biofine when beer has been cold crashing for a while so I can't say for sure that is the reason yours is not clearing. Since Ive been using BF every beer has been crystal clear.

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2021, 02:10:49 pm »
An update:  I started using Biofine about 5 weeks ago.  When the beer was ready to transfer to the keg (at basement temps), I injected about 30ml of Biofine into the tubing prior to starting the transfer.  The Biofine would hit the bottom of the keg and the beer would be transferred on top, mixing well with the beer.  Every one of the beers I sampled where I used Biofine is really, really cloudy.  One of those kegs is about half full.  Another has had about 10 beers tapped from it.  Others have been sampled with a cobra tap.  Can anyone see a scientific reason why the Biofine would not work?  Something in my water or something with my processes?  I am in the process of making a big batch of gel solution to see if I can clear these kegs up.  I tried a similar Biofine-like product years ago and had the same results.  Cheers guys.

One thing I can think of is that you are transferring the beer at room temp. When I transfer, my beers are at 33-35* and I transfer beer on top of the biofine which was added to purged kegs before transfer. I can't say without a doubt that may be your issue. I have only used biofine when beer has been cold crashing for a while so I can't say for sure that is the reason yours is not clearing. Since Ive been using BF every beer has been crystal clear.
I definitely thought of that.  My gel solution applications work better when the beer is cold too.  But I talked with a few people who also use the Biofine on basement temp beer and they said their beer clears.  If that's all it is then I can't blame the Biofine. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2021, 08:28:43 am »
Another update:  I added gel solution to SIX kegs over the weekend.  I was drinking one of those beers yesterday and the beer is noticeably clearer now.  I assume that there are various things at play here (boil strength, possibly a pH issue, adding a fining agent when the beer is not COLD, etc) but my conclusion is that the beer needs to be cold (in my case) to get better clarity from a fining agent whether it's gel or Biofine.  I have two beers in fermenters now and I'm going to bypass the Biofine on these and just keg the beers, chill them and add a gel solution and see how they come out. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Online BrewBama

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Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2021, 08:46:01 am »
Ken, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but have you considered grist, pH, time, and yeast strain?  (I haven’t read this whole thread)

I’ve never used biofine, but I’ve used gelatin more times than I can count. While gelatin doesn’t take time, I get my clearest beers when allowed to sit a few weeks after using a highly flocculant yeast (Bry-97 90% of the time).

I have a Summer Ale (Pale malt + C40, mash pH 5.2 at room temp) on tap now that is extremely bright that had nothing but Brewtan added to the mash and whirlflock added to the boil. I could sight a rifle thru this beer.

I’ll take a picture this afternoon when I pour a pint.



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« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 08:55:30 am by BrewBama »

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2021, 10:34:35 am »
Ken, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but have you considered grist, pH, time, and yeast strain?  (I haven’t read this whole thread)

I’ve never used biofine, but I’ve used gelatin more times than I can count. While gelatin doesn’t take time, I get my clearest beers when allowed to sit a few weeks after using a highly flocculant yeast (Bry-97 90% of the time).

I have a Summer Ale (Pale malt + C40, mash pH 5.2 at room temp) on tap now that is extremely bright that had nothing but Brewtan added to the mash and whirlflock added to the boil. I could sight a rifle thru this beer.

I’ll take a picture this afternoon when I pour a pint.
So in your case I might point to the fact that you start with RO or distilled (I forget which) and build up.  No bicarb to speak of and I do wonder if bicarb contributes to haziness.  As far as the grist, yeast, pH, etc... yes I have considered those things but when I use the same pilsner malt from the same bag with the same blob of yeast and my water is the same and my pH is very much consistent (even if it's not ideal) and one beer is clear and another is not then I start wondering what I'm seeing.  I feel like what is left after all of that shakes out is "boil strength" and I *WAS* lowering my boil strength at one point because the LOers were suggesting it.  All that said, my parade has been rained on many times and in those rainy moments I look for direction from other brewers so thank you for the reply.  All information is valuable for sure. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2021, 10:49:59 am »
That’s true if everything is the same and one beer is clear and the next isn’t that’s a head scratcher.

(You are correct, I use distilled. No bicarbonate)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2021, 11:23:00 am »
That’s true if everything is the same and one beer is clear and the next isn’t that’s a head scratcher.

(You are correct, I use distilled. No bicarbonate)
I have made THREE beers recently (two in the fermenter and one in a keg) where I diluted my source water with 2 gallons of distilled.  The beers were styles where this seemed to make sense (helles and other pale lagers).  So that's 26% distilled water in those batches and it was just an experiment to see what less bicarb looked like.  Adjusting pH required less acid (as expected) but the question is how will those beers TASTE and how will they LOOK. 
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Reasons for why a beer wouldn't clear...
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2021, 06:09:14 pm »
So here is this American Lager where I used BioFine when the beer was at basement temps.  The first half of the keg was cloudy, cloudy, cloudy.  I added some gel solution over the weekend and here it is now...



Much clearer.  It's funny because I called this an "American Lager" and all of the grains were American and the beer really seems like an American Lager because the head sticks around for about 20 seconds.  I don't know if it's the Briess Full Pint, the Briess Bonlander, etc. but I generally get great head formation and stability on my beers but this one is living up to its name. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.