Author Topic: Raising Calcium  (Read 764 times)

Offline Silver_Is_Money

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
  • Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
    • Mash Made Easy, MashRite, LLC
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2021, 03:56:40 PM »
Calcium Hydroxide will add appreciable calcium without introducing chloride or sulfate ions.  The OH- ions also introduced need to be acidified away.

Offline Richard

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2021, 04:05:08 PM »
Calcium Hydroxide will add appreciable calcium without introducing chloride or sulfate ions.  The OH- ions also introduced need to be acidified away.

I sometimes use calcium hydroxide (aka pickling lime) to add calcium without adding chloride or sulfate. The effect on pH can be calculated and nullified with acid using Bru'nWater. BeerSmith does not have calcium hydroxide included, so that water calculator won't work for this.
Original Gravity - that would be Newton's

Offline HopDen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 598
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2021, 09:03:34 PM »
Calcium Hydroxide will add appreciable calcium without introducing chloride or sulfate ions.  The OH- ions also introduced need to be acidified away.

I sometimes use calcium hydroxide (aka pickling lime) to add calcium without adding chloride or sulfate. The effect on pH can be calculated and nullified with acid using Bru'nWater. BeerSmith does not have calcium hydroxide included, so that water calculator won't work for this.

This is the answer I was looking for. I can try using calcium hydroxide and acidifying the mash. I assume either phosphoric or lactic will do. Since I use BS3 and it does not have the option for ca/hydroxide it will be a learning experiment.

Thanks!

Offline narcout

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2089
  • Los Angeles, CA
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2021, 09:15:33 PM »
It adds about 3 times as much bicarbonate as it does calcium.  A half gram per gallon adds 71.5 ppm of calcium and 217.4 ppm of bicarb.
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline kramerog

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2159
    • My LinkedIn page
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2021, 09:17:28 PM »
Adding phosphoric acid precipitates out calcium.  If you use Starsan with hard water, you are probably familiar with this already. So, generally use lactic acid instead.


Calcium Hydroxide will add appreciable calcium without introducing chloride or sulfate ions.  The OH- ions also introduced need to be acidified away.

I sometimes use calcium hydroxide (aka pickling lime) to add calcium without adding chloride or sulfate. The effect on pH can be calculated and nullified with acid using Bru'nWater. BeerSmith does not have calcium hydroxide included, so that water calculator won't work for this.

This is the answer I was looking for. I can try using calcium hydroxide and acidifying the mash. I assume either phosphoric or lactic will do. Since I use BS3 and it does not have the option for ca/hydroxide it will be a learning experiment.

Thanks!

Offline HopDen

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 598
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2021, 09:52:21 PM »
It adds about 3 times as much bicarbonate as it does calcium.  A half gram per gallon adds 71.5 ppm of calcium and 217.4 ppm of bicarb.

So let me ask, after adding the Ca(OH)2 which will raise the pH, by adding the lactic acid to reduce the pH will it also precipitate the carbonates thereby lowering alkalinity?

I am weak on water chem and this is a stretch on my part.

Offline Cliffs

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2021, 11:34:04 PM »
What are my options to raise calcium levels without using CaSO4, CaCL2 or CaCO3?

It would help to know why you want to avoid those.

I'm not really certain why.

I am formulating the water profile on a Hellesbock. I have added 72 ppm CL2 and 34ppm SO4 using Mg. Making it very malty but wanted to add to the Ca content without adding more CaCL2, Mg or any CaSO4

Normally I don't even use MgSO4 but was going to sub that for CaSO4. I am not aware of other salts that raise calcium other than CaCL2, CaSO4 and CaCO3.
I hope that wasn't confusing. I am weak on water chem and still trying to grasp it.

if you added CaCl and Caso4 to get to 72ppm chloride and 34ppm sulfate, then you have plenty of calcium. There is not need to add more.

Offline narcout

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2089
  • Los Angeles, CA
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2021, 11:53:26 PM »
It adds about 3 times as much bicarbonate as it does calcium.  A half gram per gallon adds 71.5 ppm of calcium and 217.4 ppm of bicarb.

So let me ask, after adding the Ca(OH)2 which will raise the pH, by adding the lactic acid to reduce the pH will it also precipitate the carbonates thereby lowering alkalinity?

I am weak on water chem and this is a stretch on my part.

You can use acid to neutralize the additional alkalinity added by the pickling lime and keep your pH in line, but the mechanism isn't precipitation of the bicarb.

I don't know that this path makes a lot of sense for the brewing of a pale lager, but it can definitely be done.

The Water Knowledge tab in Bru'n Water is a great place to start learning water chemistry (and I'm pretty sure even the free version has it).
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24153
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2021, 11:53:52 PM »
What are my options to raise calcium levels without using CaSO4, CaCL2 or CaCO3?

It would help to know why you want to avoid those.

I'm not really certain why.

I am formulating the water profile on a Hellesbock. I have added 72 ppm CL2 and 34ppm SO4 using Mg. Making it very malty but wanted to add to the Ca content without adding more CaCL2, Mg or any CaSO4

Normally I don't even use MgSO4 but was going to sub that for CaSO4. I am not aware of other salts that raise calcium other than CaCL2, CaSO4 and CaCO3.
I hope that wasn't confusing. I am weak on water chem and still trying to grasp it.

if you added CaCl and Caso4 to get to 72ppm chloride and 34ppm sulfate, then you have plenty of calcium. There is not need to add more.

THIS
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline RC

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2021, 12:36:19 AM »
It adds about 3 times as much bicarbonate as it does calcium.  A half gram per gallon adds 71.5 ppm of calcium and 217.4 ppm of bicarb.

So let me ask, after adding the Ca(OH)2 which will raise the pH, by adding the lactic acid to reduce the pH will it also precipitate the carbonates thereby lowering alkalinity?

I am weak on water chem and this is a stretch on my part.

To each their own. But adding calcium hydroxide just to boost calcium and then adding an acid to neutralize the hydroxide is an extremely and needlessly complicated way to add calcium. I mean no disrespect, but it makes absolutely no sense. Stick with gypsum and calcium chloride, and you'll be fine.

And not sure where/how bicarbonate entered the picture...

Offline Richard

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 01:41:29 AM »
The last time that I added calcium hydroxide I was trying to match "Black Full" profile in Bru'nWater for a Russian Imperial Stout:
* starting with soft water with 3 ppm sulfate and 4 ppm chloride and 5 ppm calcium
* campden to neutralize chloramine -> 20 ppm sulfate
* added enough Epsom salt to get 5 ppm magnesium -> 20 ppm sulfate

That was as much sulfate as I wanted (total of 44 ppm), but Calcium was still only 5 ppm
* Calcium chloride to bring chloride to 42 ppm, which only brings calcium to 27 ppm

I still need ~25 ppm calcium
* Pickling lime to bring calcium to 55 ppm

Because this was a very dark beer with a lot of roasted grains I didn't need to add any acid to counter the pickling lime. I got pH=5.45 with no acid addition.
Original Gravity - that would be Newton's

Offline RC

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 02:04:12 AM »
The last time that I added calcium hydroxide I was trying to match "Black Full" profile in Bru'nWater for a Russian Imperial Stout:
* starting with soft water with 3 ppm sulfate and 4 ppm chloride and 5 ppm calcium
* campden to neutralize chloramine -> 20 ppm sulfate
* added enough Epsom salt to get 5 ppm magnesium -> 20 ppm sulfate

That was as much sulfate as I wanted (total of 44 ppm), but Calcium was still only 5 ppm
* Calcium chloride to bring chloride to 42 ppm, which only brings calcium to 27 ppm

I still need ~25 ppm calcium
* Pickling lime to bring calcium to 55 ppm

Because this was a very dark beer with a lot of roasted grains I didn't need to add any acid to counter the pickling lime. I got pH=5.45 with no acid addition.

And that's the one and only use for calcium hydroxide in brewing: to add alkalinity when using roasted grains. Hydroxide is a very powerful base. The calcium is just along for the ride.

There was no need to add epsom salt to that RIS. I promise that you couldn't taste that 5ppm of magnesium. And you would not have noticed the additional chloride or sulfate from adding more CaCl2 or gypsum.

It would have been better to add more CaCl2 to bring up the calcium (and chloride), and then add alkalinity with baking soda. Then you'd get the added benefit of the sodium ion, which adds a nice touch to stouts.

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 02:31:15 AM »
Calcium Hydroxide will add appreciable calcium without introducing chloride or sulfate ions.  The OH- ions also introduced need to be acidified away.

I sometimes use calcium hydroxide (aka pickling lime) to add calcium without adding chloride or sulfate. The effect on pH can be calculated and nullified with acid using Bru'nWater. BeerSmith does not have calcium hydroxide included, so that water calculator won't work for this.

This is the answer I was looking for. I can try using calcium hydroxide and acidifying the mash. I assume either phosphoric or lactic will do. Since I use BS3 and it does not have the option for ca/hydroxide it will be a learning experiment.

Thanks!
I'm still not sure I understand why we're looking to add calcium without adding Cl or SO4, but why not just use calcium lactate and save a step?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline narcout

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2089
  • Los Angeles, CA
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2021, 03:02:36 AM »
And not sure where/how bicarbonate entered the picture...

When you use the mineral adjustment portion of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet to calculate pickling lime additions, it gives you an equivalent bicarbonate concentration.  I neglected to clarify that in my earlier post, but I should have.
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline RC

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Raising Calcium
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2021, 03:21:54 AM »
And not sure where/how bicarbonate entered the picture...

When you use the mineral adjustment portion of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet to calculate pickling lime additions, it gives you an equivalent bicarbonate concentration.  I neglected to clarify that in my earlier post, but I should have.

Copy that, thanks for clarifying.