Author Topic: American Barleywine, comments appreciated  (Read 1113 times)

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2021, 06:45:48 PM »


Have you had a BW like you want to brew that you could use as a model?

I've had a few for sure. One of my favorites was Troegs' Flying Mouflan.  But every time I've had one I always think to myself that they would be better if they were a bit more drinkable.

Don't get me wrong, I still want some malt character and given the high ABV, this style is a nightcapper for sure.  But I would like to make something not as syrupy sweet and a bit more approachable (to me) than what I've had commercially.  Again, if that means I'm not making a Barleywine, so be it.  It just so happens that the stats from the above recipe fell into the style guidelines for an American Barleywine. It's just a label.  Funny thing is, when I actually make this in a few weeks my actual numbers may end up pushing it into a different style.   :)

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24153
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2021, 07:09:54 PM »


Good stuff everyone, thanks.

So if I drop the sugar, what would be the best steps to take to make sure this beer doesn’t come out too malty?

Mash low
Pitch lots of yeast

While I would like a malt presence, I’m not looking for syrup, as some Barleywines tend to be.  Maybe my issue is that I’m not really looking for a Barleywine?? I’d accept that.

I think you're onto something there. Barleywine is supposed to be big and malty. You might be looking more for a big DIPA instead.

That being said, I think that style names are more semantics than anything else. If you can picture the beer you want in your head, then brew that beer rather than trying to shoehorn something into a particular style.

If you want a less chewy/syrupy beer, then either add sugar, mash low and long, or both. Pitch a lot of healthy yeast and oxygenate well.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Obvious solution is to make it more bitter.


for a long time I've had an idea that i heard early on fixed in my head.

That the human tongue can "max out" on the perceptible sensation of bitterness at about 90 IBU.

I am starting to have an inkling that this isn't true.

Any thoughts?

I think it's higher. At least I think I can tell a difference between a beer listed at 100 IBU and one at 132 IBU.  But is that difference due to IBUs,  more polyphenols from more hops, or something else?  There's a lot of research being done right now by YCH and others, not to mention investigation into the mIBU forhula.  Maybe we'll know eventually.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Iliff Ave

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4069
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2021, 08:03:59 PM »
I would switch gears and go with an American Strong Ale. "Generally not as strong and rich as american barleywine." Seems to fit more with what you're going for. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 08:05:57 PM by Iliff Ave »
On Tap/Bottled: IPL, Kolsch, bitter, Czech pils

Fermenting:
Up Next: amber lager, Italian pils

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3480
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2021, 08:59:42 PM »
I would switch gears and go with an American Strong Ale. "Generally not as strong and rich as american barleywine." Seems to fit more with what you're going for.

This was my thought too. Barleywines are strong ales but barleywine carries certain ideas with it. The old school American Barleywine was more like a malty DIPA than many of the newer versions which are even more malty and lean towards the British heritage and sometimes even more into darker malt flavors. That doesn't sound at all like the goal here. Trying to imagine a beer that fits the description and original recipe sounds a lot closer to something like Arrogant Bastard than a barleywine. Might be worth looking at one of the many Arrogant Bastard clone recipes and retool the hops to whatever you want to use.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2021, 09:04:33 PM »


Good stuff everyone, thanks.

So if I drop the sugar, what would be the best steps to take to make sure this beer doesn’t come out too malty?

Mash low
Pitch lots of yeast

While I would like a malt presence, I’m not looking for syrup, as some Barleywines tend to be.  Maybe my issue is that I’m not really looking for a Barleywine?? I’d accept that.

I think you're onto something there. Barleywine is supposed to be big and malty. You might be looking more for a big DIPA instead.

That being said, I think that style names are more semantics than anything else. If you can picture the beer you want in your head, then brew that beer rather than trying to shoehorn something into a particular style.

If you want a less chewy/syrupy beer, then either add sugar, mash low and long, or both. Pitch a lot of healthy yeast and oxygenate well.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Obvious solution is to make it more bitter.


for a long time I've had an idea that i heard early on fixed in my head.

That the human tongue can "max out" on the perceptible sensation of bitterness at about 90 IBU.

I am starting to have an inkling that this isn't true.

Any thoughts?

I think it's higher. At least I think I can tell a difference between a beer listed at 100 IBU and one at 132 IBU.  But is that difference due to IBUs,  more polyphenols from more hops, or something else?  There's a lot of research being done right now by YCH and others, not to mention investigation into the mIBU forhula.  Maybe we'll know eventually.
I've heard 60 and 70 IBU mentioned as the limit of perception and 100 IBU as the upper limit from a solubility perspective. But I can certainly detect differences in bitterness between high IBU beers as well. As you alluded to, there are a lot of other possible factors that may affect the perception of bitterness including polyphenols, balance of residual sweetness, sulfate content, cohumulone percentage, and I'm sure other factors that haven't even been discovered yet.

The concept of IBUs as related to bitterness in highly hopped beers doesn't really hold up the same way it does for more traditionally hopped styles, in my opinion. There's a lot more going on in modern IPAs and similar styles that needs to be accounted for.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24153
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2021, 09:06:45 PM »
Is cohumulone still a consideration? Years back, the theory was that it gave a harsher, rougher bitterness but I thought that had been disproven.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2021, 10:21:48 PM »
Is cohumulone still a consideration? Years back, the theory was that it gave a harsher, rougher bitterness but I thought that had been disproven.
Personally I don't think it is, but I don't know if I've seen proof. My main point was that I think that there's got to be a lot more at play than just iso-alpha acids, especially at the higher hop usage rates we've started seeing in the past 10 to 15 years.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline fredthecat

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2021, 11:14:16 PM »
Is cohumulone still a consideration? Years back, the theory was that it gave a harsher, rougher bitterness but I thought that had been disproven.

i know of one DIPA i can get around here that has the absolute harshest bitterness i recall tasting. it's flavour profile is decent, but i dumped the last third, last time i had it. i should ask them what hops they use.  https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/194/99230/

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2021, 11:26:05 PM »
I would switch gears and go with an American Strong Ale. "Generally not as strong and rich as american barleywine." Seems to fit more with what you're going for.

A couple of gravity points aside, the original recipe basically fits an American Strong Ale as well.  So maybe I should just change the name of the beer and call it a day!  :)

So coming full circle, does that original recipe/process get me something that has a malt presence but is also dry enough to be a bit more quaffable than a typical chewy Barleywine?  I’d like to keep the ABV up and the bitterness up.  And hopefully some hop aroma will stick around for at least 6 months or so. 

And is it realistic to believe that I can coax 75% out of BRY-97?  If not, what am I doing here?  😂

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2021, 11:33:30 PM »
Is cohumulone still a consideration? Years back, the theory was that it gave a harsher, rougher bitterness but I thought that had been disproven.

i know of one DIPA i can get around here that has the absolute harshest bitterness i recall tasting. it's flavour profile is decent, but i dumped the last third, last time i had it. i should ask them what hops they use.  https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/194/99230/
Chinook and Cascade per their website. Chinook can definitely put a nice firm bite on the bitterness.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2021, 08:27:24 PM »
Any bottle conditioning advice for this still to be brewed Barleywine?

My intention is to go straight from the fermenter to bottles, no priming bucket.  My reasoning is that this will be less aggravation and less to clean, though I will have to sugar-prime all bottles individually.  I also do not intend to add any additional yeasties to the bottles, hoping that after 2-3 weeks of primary, the original yeast will make a triumphant return to form.  Red flags?

As I see it, measuring the correct amount of sugar to add per bottle will be my biggest hurdle.  Or am I missing hurdles?

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2021, 10:09:04 PM »
Any bottle conditioning advice for this still to be brewed Barleywine?

My intention is to go straight from the fermenter to bottles, no priming bucket.  My reasoning is that this will be less aggravation and less to clean, though I will have to sugar-prime all bottles individually.  I also do not intend to add any additional yeasties to the bottles, hoping that after 2-3 weeks of primary, the original yeast will make a triumphant return to form.  Red flags?

As I see it, measuring the correct amount of sugar to add per bottle will be my biggest hurdle.  Or am I missing hurdles?
Do you have a spigot on your fermenter? I used to bottle out of primary for my 1 gallon batches using an autosiphon and bottling wand and it was such a pain in the ass. I'll never do that again. It's way easier to rack to a purged keg and use a little CO2 pressure to push the beer into bottles.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline dannyjed

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1363
  • Toledo, OH
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2021, 10:24:36 PM »
Any bottle conditioning advice for this still to be brewed Barleywine?

My intention is to go straight from the fermenter to bottles, no priming bucket.  My reasoning is that this will be less aggravation and less to clean, though I will have to sugar-prime all bottles individually.  I also do not intend to add any additional yeasties to the bottles, hoping that after 2-3 weeks of primary, the original yeast will make a triumphant return to form.  Red flags?

As I see it, measuring the correct amount of sugar to add per bottle will be my biggest hurdle.  Or am I missing hurdles?
Do you have a spigot on your fermenter? I used to bottle out of primary for my 1 gallon batches using an autosiphon and bottling wand and it was such a pain in the ass. I'll never do that again. It's way easier to rack to a purged keg and use a little CO2 pressure to push the beer into bottles.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
This ^^^
I rack to a keg with the appropriate amount of sugar. Then, I shove a bottling wand into a picnic tap and fill the bottles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dan Chisholm

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2021, 11:18:07 PM »
Any bottle conditioning advice for this still to be brewed Barleywine?

My intention is to go straight from the fermenter to bottles, no priming bucket.  My reasoning is that this will be less aggravation and less to clean, though I will have to sugar-prime all bottles individually.  I also do not intend to add any additional yeasties to the bottles, hoping that after 2-3 weeks of primary, the original yeast will make a triumphant return to form.  Red flags?

As I see it, measuring the correct amount of sugar to add per bottle will be my biggest hurdle.  Or am I missing hurdles?
Do you have a spigot on your fermenter? I used to bottle out of primary for my 1 gallon batches using an autosiphon and bottling wand and it was such a pain in the ass. I'll never do that again. It's way easier to rack to a purged keg and use a little CO2 pressure to push the beer into bottles.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Yep, I have a spigot.  From spigot to bottle, then cap it.  One short piece of hose to sanitize, besides the bottles.  Can’t see that taking very long.  ::)

I haven’t bottled in ages and I guess I’m more wondering if there are any tricks to bottle carbing such a high gravity beer...

Offline erockrph

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 7088
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2021, 01:04:35 AM »


Any bottle conditioning advice for this still to be brewed Barleywine?

My intention is to go straight from the fermenter to bottles, no priming bucket.  My reasoning is that this will be less aggravation and less to clean, though I will have to sugar-prime all bottles individually.  I also do not intend to add any additional yeasties to the bottles, hoping that after 2-3 weeks of primary, the original yeast will make a triumphant return to form.  Red flags?

As I see it, measuring the correct amount of sugar to add per bottle will be my biggest hurdle.  Or am I missing hurdles?
Do you have a spigot on your fermenter? I used to bottle out of primary for my 1 gallon batches using an autosiphon and bottling wand and it was such a pain in the ass. I'll never do that again. It's way easier to rack to a purged keg and use a little CO2 pressure to push the beer into bottles.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Yep, I have a spigot.  From spigot to bottle, then cap it.  One short piece of hose to sanitize, besides the bottles.  Can’t see that taking very long.  ::)

I haven’t bottled in ages and I guess I’m more wondering if there are any tricks to bottle carbing such a high gravity beer...

No tricks needed. I've bottle conditioned beers in the 12-14% range with no extra steps involved other than a little patience. The yeast might be a bit sluggish and could take an extra week or two to fully carb up.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer