Author Topic: American Barleywine, comments appreciated  (Read 1109 times)

Offline Steve Ruch

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1449
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2021, 01:19:28 AM »
If I was going to age an American barleywine for six months I'd go higher than 80 IBUs.
I love to go swimmin'
with hairy old women

Offline dannyjed

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1363
  • Toledo, OH
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2021, 01:30:24 AM »
If I was going to age an American barleywine for six months I'd go higher than 80 IBUs.
Me too! I aim for 100 IBUs or more because the bitterness can fade, but it helps level out the big malt flavor with another layer from the hops. I have also learned that an IBU can be a lie, anyway an American version should have a big hop presence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dan Chisholm

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2021, 11:07:05 AM »
Yes, I agree.  I took Denny’s earlier advice about using the hops/bitterness as one way to balance the malt sweetness.  I upped my calculated top-of-the-boil IBU’s to 100, not counting any IBU contributions from the late additions.

So, in order to balance the maltiness, I’ve got:
A water profile leaning heavily on SO4, thanks to a gypsum addition.
A 90 minute mash.
A low mash temp, say 147-148.
A bit of sugar.
And a bracing IBU level.

Still a few weeks away from brew day, adjustments can still be made.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 01:09:38 PM by Megary »

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2021, 07:36:45 PM »
I'll be brewing this on Sunday so I'm currently navigating the obligatory "overthinking" stage of this new (to me) brew session.

I have kicked around many different ideas on how to handle this much grain for my BIAB mash.  Lots of interesting mash concepts out there (back to back mashes, simultaneous mashes, etc.), but in the end I've decided to just stick with my normal, straight up, dunk and run.  My only concern with this is lifting the bag and holding it until I get to my pre-boil volume.  I think I have this covered though, I just haven't told my 22 year old son yet.   :)

My bigger concern is conversion though.  Aside from crushing a bit finer and mashing a bit longer, any suggestions on how best to make off with the most sugars.  My goal is 1.094 and I'd be ok with 1.084 even, but I'd like to be in the ballpark.  I did lower my efficiency when designing the recipe so I hope to have some fudge factor already built in.

Thoughts?

**Edit**  I don't think sparging will be an option, and I don't think it would help much anyway.  Could be wrong about that though.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 07:38:16 PM by Megary »

Offline dannyjed

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1363
  • Toledo, OH
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2021, 07:45:04 PM »
I think you will be fine. I usually get about 10 points lower on efficiency when I make big beers on my system. Not sure what you use for fermentation, but the fermentation can get very aggressive and heat up a bit. Good luck and let us know how it works out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dan Chisholm

Offline 69franx

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
  • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2021, 06:17:05 AM »
I know it's a different approach and more English than American, but I brewed this Barleywine in January 2020. Recipe is essentially a clone of a recipe from Morticaixavier who used to post here frequently. It might be the best brew I've ever made in 8+ years of brewing.

Rough estimates are:
65Maris Otter
27% Munich II
7.7% sugar, table

IBUs are low at projected 57, with target OG of 1.104. Using 2 oz Magnum at 60; an ounce each of  Saaz and Hallertau Mittelfrueh at 0 minutes.

Initial targets of:
OG: 1.104
IBU: 57
Color: 12.4 SRM
Target FG: 1.031
ABV: 10.9%
 Fermented with WLP007(2 fresh vials)
Ran no sparge, capped mash with some medium crystal for an ordinary bitter fr second runnings. That small beer literally paled in comparison, and likely half the keg was dumped after 6 months(better options available)
 Finished at:
OG: 1.105
FG: 1.018
ABV: 11.6%

To me, it's the best big beer I've ever brewed. I've brewed Skotrats Traquair House clone, Denny and Drew's queen of Diamonds, Palmer's Fighting Urak Hai, various Pliny Clones, clones of an award winning local double nut brown, etc. It's smooth, with an alcoholic warmth, not heat. Plenty of bitterness in the front side, but the malt really is the star.

May not be the sharp bitterness beast you're looking for, but I may brew this beast every year from now on and I give all credit to Morticaixavier

Even now, 17 months after brew day, this brew shines on through. I don't enter comps normally, but I would have entered this one if 2020 was a normal year and would have expected some strong scores. I bottled it up half and half in 12oz and 22oz bombers. The bombers are about all that is left right now and I expect will pour very nicely this upcoming winter


Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 06:19:19 AM by 69franx »
Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2021, 01:25:59 PM »
I know it's a different approach and more English than American, but I brewed this Barleywine in January 2020. Recipe is essentially a clone of a recipe from Morticaixavier who used to post here frequently. It might be the best brew I've ever made in 8+ years of brewing.

Rough estimates are:
65Maris Otter
27% Munich II
7.7% sugar, table

IBUs are low at projected 57, with target OG of 1.104. Using 2 oz Magnum at 60; an ounce each of  Saaz and Hallertau Mittelfrueh at 0 minutes.

Initial targets of:
OG: 1.104
IBU: 57
Color: 12.4 SRM
Target FG: 1.031
ABV: 10.9%
 Fermented with WLP007(2 fresh vials)
Ran no sparge, capped mash with some medium crystal for an ordinary bitter fr second runnings. That small beer literally paled in comparison, and likely half the keg was dumped after 6 months(better options available)
 Finished at:
OG: 1.105
FG: 1.018
ABV: 11.6%

To me, it's the best big beer I've ever brewed. I've brewed Skotrats Traquair House clone, Denny and Drew's queen of Diamonds, Palmer's Fighting Urak Hai, various Pliny Clones, clones of an award winning local double nut brown, etc. It's smooth, with an alcoholic warmth, not heat. Plenty of bitterness in the front side, but the malt really is the star.

May not be the sharp bitterness beast you're looking for, but I may brew this beast every year from now on and I give all credit to Morticaixavier

Even now, 17 months after brew day, this brew shines on through. I don't enter comps normally, but I would have entered this one if 2020 was a normal year and would have expected some strong scores. I bottled it up half and half in 12oz and 22oz bombers. The bombers are about all that is left right now and I expect will pour very nicely this upcoming winter


Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Thanks for that.  While it's too late for me to make any changes to the direction I've chosen, I will definitely keep this recipe for reference.

For the record, I enjoy a malt presence in a Barleywine.  What I'm not so crazy about is when that malt presence buries the rest of the beer leading to a sweetness that - for me - doesn't invite another sip.  I realize this is all relative to the drinker, but my goal here is to dial it back some and balance that maltiness, not eliminate it.  According to my predicted vitals, this beer still falls under "American Barleywine", though admittedly, I'm pushing the hops.

I posted earlier that I upped the BTU's to 100, but I think that was going too far.  If I was making a 1.100 beer, then sure.  But I'm shooting for mid 90's (give or take a dozen or so  :) ), so I've dropped the IBU's back down to where I started, about 75-80 (BU:GU ≈ .8 ).

This is the slightly updated final recipe:

Batch Size - 2.5gal (into fermenter)
OG ≈ 1.095
FG ≈ 1.025
ABV ≈ 9 - 9.5
SRM ≈ 13 - 15 15-18

79% American 2-Row
11% 14% Dark Munich
8% 5% Corn Sugar
2% C120

80 IBU's Chinook @60
1oz Idaho 7 @0
1oz Loral @0

2 packs BRY-97
Yeast nutrient in the boil

Mash - 90 minutes at 148°
Boil - 90 minutes

Bottle to ≈ 2.25 volumes.


So...on paper, I'm ok with that.  But process is going to determine whether I can actually brew what's in my head...A Barleywine that borrows a bit from an IIPA.

Offline jverduin

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2021, 06:00:54 PM »
I'll be brewing this on Sunday so I'm currently navigating the obligatory "overthinking" stage of this new (to me) brew session.

I have kicked around many different ideas on how to handle this much grain for my BIAB mash.  Lots of interesting mash concepts out there (back to back mashes, simultaneous mashes, etc.), but in the end I've decided to just stick with my normal, straight up, dunk and run.  My only concern with this is lifting the bag and holding it until I get to my pre-boil volume.  I think I have this covered though, I just haven't told my 22 year old son yet.   :)

My bigger concern is conversion though.  Aside from crushing a bit finer and mashing a bit longer, any suggestions on how best to make off with the most sugars.  My goal is 1.094 and I'd be ok with 1.084 even, but I'd like to be in the ballpark.  I did lower my efficiency when designing the recipe so I hope to have some fudge factor already built in.

Thoughts?

**Edit**  I don't think sparging will be an option, and I don't think it would help much anyway.  Could be wrong about that though.
With a BIAB setup, you should be fine with your normal process. I’ve done a several beers above 1.100 on my system and I get predictable OGs. I double crush as my crusher gets fussy with a really tight gap on the first pass. I get more dough balls with fine crush and seems even worse wi Maris Otter (might be perception). I don’t find I need longer mash, but that is around 152 degrees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2021, 06:58:49 PM »

This is the slightly updated final recipe:

Batch Size - 2.5gal (into fermenter)
OG ≈ 1.095
FG ≈ 1.025
ABV ≈ 9 - 9.5
SRM ≈ 13 - 15 15-18

79% American 2-Row
11% 14% Dark Munich
8% 5% Corn Sugar
2% C120

80 IBU's Chinook @60
1oz Idaho 7 @0
1oz Loral @0

2 packs BRY-97
Yeast nutrient in the boil

Mash - 90 minutes at 148°
Boil - 90 minutes

Bottle to ≈ 2.25 volumes.


So...on paper, I'm ok with that.  But process is going to determine whether I can actually brew what's in my head...A Barleywine that borrows a bit from an IIPA.

What a day.  Mashing in was a bit of an adventure, lots of work to bust up all of the dough balls.  I was on my own with lifting that bag and trying to hit pre-boil and I thought I was going to die.  A 1:30 mash and a near 1:45 boil.  WTF? Whose idea was this?  Definitely a once a year type of brew session.  Nearly 6 hours when I’m usually done in 4-1/2 tops.  But, in the end I hit 1.096.  So I feel the process and recipe numbers have been vindicated somewhat.  Still, I think my next beer will be a SMASH.    :)

Offline 69franx

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
  • Bloatarian Brewing League
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2021, 07:02:17 PM »
Yep, I'm down to just one big beer per year, maybe 2. A chewy Barleywine and a nice Scotch ale. The big boys really do take a lot more prep time, brew day time and patience on the back end

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Frank L.
Fermenting: Nothing (ugh!)
Conditioning: Nothing (UGH!)
In keg: Nothing (Double UGH!)
In the works:  House IPA, Dark Mild, Ballantine Ale clone(still trying to work this one into the schedule)

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2021, 02:58:45 PM »
BRY-97 started showing signs of fermentation in 2 hours and developed a massive krausen overnight, probably 10-12 hours.  Temp is currently holding fast at 70°, which is a bit warmer than I was hoping, but within guidelines.

I've heard tale of those that would recommend an additional blast of O2 after a day or so for beers of this gravity.  In my case, that would just mean removing the lid and giving the fermenter another swirl (which would likely lead to an absolute mess as the krausen is right at the top as it is).  However, I'm thinking (hoping?) this is unnecessary for 2 packs of dry yeast in 3gal of 1.096 wort, especially for a yeast with a tolerance of 13%.

Offline jverduin

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2021, 04:51:50 PM »
BRY-97 started showing signs of fermentation in 2 hours and developed a massive krausen overnight, probably 10-12 hours.  Temp is currently holding fast at 70°, which is a bit warmer than I was hoping, but within guidelines.

I've heard tale of those that would recommend an additional blast of O2 after a day or so for beers of this gravity.  In my case, that would just mean removing the lid and giving the fermenter another swirl (which would likely lead to an absolute mess as the krausen is right at the top as it is).  However, I'm thinking (hoping?) this is unnecessary for 2 packs of dry yeast in 3gal of 1.096 wort, especially for a yeast with a tolerance of 13%.
I wouldn’t think additional O2 would be necessary, especially knowing your specifics. (Large pitch, dry yeast, 3.5G)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Megary

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2021, 11:25:41 PM »
BRY-97 started showing signs of fermentation in 2 hours and developed a massive krausen overnight, probably 10-12 hours.  Temp is currently holding fast at 70°, which is a bit warmer than I was hoping, but within guidelines.

I've heard tale of those that would recommend an additional blast of O2 after a day or so for beers of this gravity.  In my case, that would just mean removing the lid and giving the fermenter another swirl (which would likely lead to an absolute mess as the krausen is right at the top as it is).  However, I'm thinking (hoping?) this is unnecessary for 2 packs of dry yeast in 3gal of 1.096 wort, especially for a yeast with a tolerance of 13%.
I wouldn’t think additional O2 would be necessary, especially knowing your specifics. (Large pitch, dry yeast, 3.5G)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you’re right but…allow me to think out loud for a minute.

I have two fermenters at home: a 3+ gallon Speidel w. valve (love it, use it for every brew) and a 3+ gallon glass carboy (nothing wrong with it, but makes transfers and cleaning so much more difficult, haven’t used it in years).

Neither of these FV’s would have the necessary head space to handle the oncoming krausen storm for this fermentation.

My plan for this beer was to bottle right out of the Speidel valve, adding sugar to individual bottles.  Because of this plan, I fermented in the Speidel where the blowoff was predictably massive and has left a ton of crap around the top of the fermenter.  This might be nothing of concern, but I wonder if the last of the bottles will see an abundance of junk??

(The experienced brewers know what I’m about to ask…)

Should I rather have started fermentation in the carboy and then, once krausen dropped but while fermentation was still active, transferred to the Speidel in order to make bottling a bit easier and cleaner?  If I had had this foresight (I didn’t), I would be under the impression that while transferring with active ferm taking place any O2 would be taken care of by the still diligent yeast.

Of course, that’s all irrelevant to the current situation.

Now, if I transfer out of the Speidel and into the carboy, bottling will be possible but a bit more problematic.  Unless I transfer a second time back to a cleaned and sanitized Speidel that I could then use as a bottling bucket, sugar solution already added.  :o

So, I should:
1. Leave it be. Bottle when ready directly out of the Speidel into bottles pre loaded with sugar.
2. Transfer to carboy during active fermentation and bottle when ready with siphon/bottling wand into bottles pre loaded with sugar.
3. Transfer to carboy during active fermentation, clean the Speidel, then after fermentation transfer back to the Speidel with sugar solution already added and then bottle.
4. None of the above.

Offline jverduin

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2021, 02:44:46 PM »
I’m judging from a distance, but the potential of a krausen ring dropping remnants of “stuff” wouldn’t cause me to perform additional transfers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 24153
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: American Barleywine, comments appreciated
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2021, 02:55:52 PM »
I’m judging from a distance, but the potential of a krausen ring dropping remnants of “stuff” wouldn’t cause me to perform additional transfers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell