[erockrph]

I think it's a lot like music. There's more than one way to shred. Sometimes a power chord or 12 bar blues is good enough.

I get that analogy because I have been playing electric and acoustic (mostly electric) guitar off-and-on since the mid-seventies.  I went through playing seventies blues-rock and funk through eighties neoclassical fusion to playing roots music.  A lot of neoclassical-style shredders from the eighties cannot play the blues. Its simplicity really trips them up. Steve Vai is an amazing guitarist, but I found it humbling when he commented on Johnny A's instrumental version of Wichita Lineman being something that was beyond his playing ability, which is why he signed Johnny.  It is an amazing rendition of the song. Johnny has very tasty chops.

I'll have to go check him out, if Steve Vai is giving him that level of praise. I've seen Vai play on a few of the G3 and other similar tours. Even compared to the other virtuoso guitarists on those tours, his technique, musicality, and improvisational skills are in another league. He literally played circles around Yngwie Malmsteen. Plus, he seems like a genuinely nice dude. I guess years of playing for Zappa will do that for you.

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[hopfenundmalz]

I know s couple of wild and crazy guys who never make starters. They look up how many fresh liquid packs to pitch and have fun. They make some tasty beer by not stressing too much.

[fredthecat]

As far as to SNS, it has always been more about simplifying the process and reducing out of pocket expense because a one-gallon glass jug is a lot cheaper than a stir plate and Erlenmeyer flask, and that is if one cannot repurpose a jug that contained apple juice or filtered apple cider vinegar. 

oh sure, but i NEVER consider price. i NEVER calculate the price of all my homebrew equipment. i monitor aeration levels, cell counts, pH, etc, and meticulously record this data, but price? No, it NEVER crosses my mind as a homebrewer.

lol this isn't directed at you sacch, i dont know if you keep track of price or not.

You should be using a solution that is 5 to 10 percent malt sugar weight by volume (w/v).  That translates to 50 to 100 grams of DME to 1L water.  If you want the shortest lag period from a new culture, you wait no longer than 24 hours before pitching a starter.  What you are doing is pitching into 17% w/v wort and then allowing the culture to ferment out, which places it in a state of quiescence where the cells have undergone morphological changes to help them survive starvation.  Those changes have to be reversed before the culture can go about replenishing ergosterol and unsaturated fatty reserves (UFA).  Pitching a starter at high krausen ensures that the culture has reached the maximum cell count possible in the medium, but has not wasted ergosterol and UFA reserves that will need to be replenished when pitched.

I believe that you should read my article entitled "Yeast Culture are Like Nuclear Weapons" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/yeast-cultures-are-nuclear-weapons).  It will help you to understand how yeast biomass grows and why precise pitching rates are not critical.  What is critical is yeast cell health, a good carbon source (sugar is carbon bound to water), and dissolved O₂.

i am starting to understand this because i haven't been super happy lately with some liquid starters for certain brews i've been doing following the high cell count/size concept. i'll give that a read, but one question is, what attachments do i need to attach to a welding pure 02 cylinder to have it work in the wort? i see them at the store but can't find any attachments for them.

[denny]

I know s couple of wild and crazy guys who never make starters. They look up how many fresh liquid packs to pitch and have fun. They make some tasty beer by not stressing too much.

That has become my standard method.  I keep getting lazier and appreciate the ease.

[Cliffs]

I know s couple of wild and crazy guys who never make starters. They look up how many fresh liquid packs to pitch and have fun. They make some tasty beer by not stressing too much.

That has become my standard method.  I keep getting lazier and appreciate the ease.

Imagine how easier things would be if yeast labs would just give us larger amounts of yeast to pitch. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to have a larger pitch from the get go

[Village Taphouse]

Imagine how easier things would be if yeast labs would just give us larger amounts of yeast to pitch. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to have a larger pitch from the get go

I agree but I would also like to point out that our yeast choices are better now than ever.  It used to be crummy dry yeast, Wyeast and White Labs and now we have so many other choices in liquid (Omega, Imperial, etc) and also more GOOD choices in dry yeast that seem to make good beer.  I have always said that if I could find Omega Bayern (the so-called Augustiner strain) and also Omega Mexican Lager/White Labs 940 in dry form, I might stop using liquid yeast altogether.  I could be pretty content with those two in dry form plus BRY-97, Diamond, 34/70, S-189 and maybe S-04.  We have more options with yeast than ever before and that goes for grains and hops as well.  It's a great time to be a homebrewer!    Cheers Beerheads. 

[ynotbrusum]

I am hopeful that many more of the readily available liquid yeasts will become available as dry versions.  Of course, after a dry yeast is pitched, a re-pitching is then a liquid yeast, so I now have no problems pitching dry lager yeasts in place of liquid yeasts in many of my beers as serially re-pitched yeasts (but I agree that Omega Bayern is great - I use it regularly and serially). 

I have my lazy man process down pretty well, using a small stainless ladle that I take 3 scoops of yeast from a primary fermenter that I have racked to keg from immediately prior to cleaning, sanitizing and re-using the same primary for the fermentation of the new brew.  Timing brew days accordingly, when possible, for 10 gallon batches (I approximate to be about 300 ml or so) or half that for 5 gallon batches.  The start is quick and full attenuation is reached within 7-10 days (Tilt readings taken) at mid to high 50F temperatures and usually pressure fermented at 8-12 psi.

One example of a new dry yeast I really like is the Koln dry yeast - it gave me favorable taste results as compared to WLP 029 or Wyeast 2565 and cleared pretty well on its own.  I won't hesitate to use it again.  Cheers, indeed, for the times we live in - at least from a homebrewing ingredient availability perspective!

[Cliffs]

Imagine how easier things would be if yeast labs would just give us larger amounts of yeast to pitch. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to have a larger pitch from the get go

I agree but I would also like to point out that our yeast choices are better now than ever.  It used to be crummy dry yeast, Wyeast and White Labs and now we have so many other choices in liquid (Omega, Imperial, etc) and also more GOOD choices in dry yeast that seem to make good beer.  I have always said that if I could find Omega Bayern (the so-called Augustiner strain) and also Omega Mexican Lager/White Labs 940 in dry form, I might stop using liquid yeast altogether.  I could be pretty content with those two in dry form plus BRY-97, Diamond, 34/70, S-189 and maybe S-04.  We have more options with yeast than ever before and that goes for grains and hops as well.  It's a great time to be a homebrewer!    Cheers Beerheads.

yeah, compared to 15-20 years ago, we are in a golden ago of yeast choices, I more just wish yeast labs would help us enter the golden age of yeast pitching amounts. Imagine how helpful a pitch of Omega Bayern would be if Omega packaged it in 500 billion amounts.

[ynotbrusum]

According to its website:

“How many yeast cells are in your homebrew packs?
Through our proprietary process, we generate the optimal number of yeast cells, which varies from strain from strain, to yield the best and most consistent performance for each.

As a result of genetic differences, we have observed strain to strain variation in cell counts even under identical growth conditions. Certain strains may contain up to 500 billion cells per pack while other strains may contain slightly less than 150 billion cells per pack.

Most importantly, all packs contain the optimal number of viable yeast cells to ferment 5 gallons of wort up to 1.060 OG at the time of packaging.

The number of cells in the pack do not define the success of the brew.”

I brew low ABV beers, so the liquid yeast, if fresh, usually doesn’t require a starter, but that’s because an ABV beer of under 4% or so will be generally well served by the yeast package as they sell it. YMMV, of course.

[erockrph]

Imagine how easier things would be if yeast labs would just give us larger amounts of yeast to pitch. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to have a larger pitch from the get go

I agree but I would also like to point out that our yeast choices are better now than ever.  It used to be crummy dry yeast, Wyeast and White Labs and now we have so many other choices in liquid (Omega, Imperial, etc) and also more GOOD choices in dry yeast that seem to make good beer.  I have always said that if I could find Omega Bayern (the so-called Augustiner strain) and also Omega Mexican Lager/White Labs 940 in dry form, I might stop using liquid yeast altogether.  I could be pretty content with those two in dry form plus BRY-97, Diamond, 34/70, S-189 and maybe S-04.  We have more options with yeast than ever before and that goes for grains and hops as well.  It's a great time to be a homebrewer!    Cheers Beerheads.

yeah, compared to 15-20 years ago, we are in a golden ago of yeast choices, I more just wish yeast labs would help us enter the golden age of yeast pitching amounts. Imagine how helpful a pitch of Omega Bayern would be if Omega packaged it in 500 billion amounts.

There are more and more smaller batch brewers like myself nowadays. I for one would be kinda upset if I ended up having to pay for twice the yeast I need. I'd end up using liquid yeast even less often than I do already if that were the case.

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[chinaski]

I love that, as homebrewers, we give trigger warnings for talking about using a stir plate!


Don't tell anyone, but my immersion chiller is made of .... copper!  The horror...

[majorvices]

I love that, as homebrewers, we give trigger warnings for talking about using a stir plate!


Don't tell anyone, but my immersion chiller is made of .... copper!  The horror...

I remember when people were referred to as being "style Nazis" ... seems almost quaint now.

[hopfenundmalz]

I know s couple of wild and crazy guys who never make starters. They look up how many fresh liquid packs to pitch and have fun. They make some tasty beer by not stressing too much.

That has become my standard method.  I keep getting lazier and appreciate the ease.

Imagine how easier things would be if yeast labs would just give us larger amounts of yeast to pitch. I'd gladly pay a few bucks more to have a larger pitch from the get go

Imperial has 200 Billion cells per pack for a few dollars more.

[Rbalsinger]

At the other end of the starter spectrum........

I harvested a ton of 2nd generation slurry from a 1.056 batch of Omega British Ale VIII and put 1ml of slurry into a bunch of capped test tubes and refrigerate at 36 F (~1B cells each). I brew twice a month, 5g batches of AHA 11c trying to refine my process, setup and recipe. I pitch 1 ml slurry into 20 cc OF 1.035 wort. Then step 2 is 200 ml, step 3 is 1000 ml and step 4 is 1000 ml again, DECANTING ALL. (Calculations came from Brew Smith). I pitch ~264 B cells into ~20000 ml of wort to make finished beer. This schedule has me doing a starter week followed by a ferment week, rinse repeat.

I won't attempt to explain the technical reasons fully because I am just a guy who can read. It comes down to some cells eat early in the fermentation, some eat late in the fermentation and that making small steps up maximizes the number of cells that eat all day.

This is only something that I do now that I am retired. My wife calls me a "yeast whisperer" because she hears me talking to my yeasties often.

FWIW

I am happy with quick starts from a notoriously slow starting yeast and attenuation numbers are right on par for an 11C.

[ynotbrusum]

Cheers to refining a recipe through re-brewing!  I have enjoyed both Omega British VIII and British V.  I use slurry as a straight repitch, rather than capturing in small vials, but your process is enviable for a homebrewer, for sure.  I don't have the patience for the lab work side of yeast ranching and I get lazier as I go, it seems.  Good luck with those strong bitters - my bitters are ordinary to special in strength and they go quickly among my friends who are willing to try them in lieu of lagers.