Author Topic: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man  (Read 1779 times)

Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2021, 12:16:23 AM »
Since I was mentioned, I have to Chime in on LODO.

LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers. My wife often doesn't taste it, so I'm sensitive to it, she isn't, for once. This oxidation takes place on the hot side, HSA is real in the right situation (more on this later).

The larger German Breweries with modern brewhouse are LODO. I'm referring to regional and larger breweries. Schönram is a regional that is LODO. Small family breweries are often not. I've picked up Herbstoff in those.

I've been brewing my lagers with LODO for sometime. I think the beers are better. British ales? I don't bother as the beers lack something. One key fact is that malts that are kilned at over 184F have denatured the LOX. That was stated by Joe Henrich (SP) on a MBAA podcast, he has work as malt expert his whole career. Pale ale malts are kilned to a darker Lovibond, which requires a higher kiln temperature so no LOX! If you are making good beers with Maris Otter, that is why. If you read where someone does a LODO experiment with Maris Otter and finds no difference, of course there is no difference!

Cold side techniques have to be good to keep O2 out for German Pilsner based beers. You can lose it on the cold side for those Pilsner based beers. British cask beers oxidize in the cask when vented, and can be seat after a day or two. Oh, many British breweries are not as advanced as the German breweries.

We have a super drinkable German Pilsner on right now. It had LODO on the hot side, and it was fermented in kegs, and spunded to develope the carbonation. We shared some with very knowledgeable friends (one BJCP National, and another an advanced Cicerone) who all loved it.

I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

One final thought, LODO Rauchbier has a longer shelf life. That bacon or ham flavor is due to the smoke phenolics oxidizing.  In Bamberg the Rauchbier tastes like fresh Texas brisket, clean smoke, no aged meat flavors.
Yes!

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2021, 12:19:32 AM »
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)
Nope. LODO for all. No change in process. Too much work. Some styles will benefit, some may not.
Benefit is sometimes just on flavor stability.

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Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2021, 12:43:57 AM »
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)
Nope. LODO for all. No change in process. Too much work. Some styles will benefit, some may not.
Benefit is sometimes just on flavor stability.

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Not so much for Cask Ales, oxidation gives some of the flavor. So no.

Then you have British bottled beers which are an oxidized mess once in the US
 Do yes.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2021, 02:19:26 AM »
Simcoe, Mosiac, Chinook, and Citra are straight-up litter box to me.  Even Cascade can have noticeable 4MMP. 

Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2021, 04:06:23 AM »
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 04:19:47 AM by BrewBama »
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Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2021, 11:06:19 AM »
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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I do all that you mention. Pre boil water, turn off the heat, add N-Meta and Brewtan-B, fill the mash tun from the bottom. The mash tun has been purged with CO2 from the bottom. I try and cap the mash as best that I can in a keggle.

Once the mash is done I transfer to the boil kettle filling from the bottom.

I recently decided to ferment in corny kegs, 3 kegs for 10 gallons gives enough headspace for lagers. Check the gravity, sound when at +1 Plato above FG. Once sounding is complete, the beer is transferred into 2 purged kegs. Lager and serve

I've only done Sauergut once. Will try that again. It is part of the flavor profile in some beers. Last time through Ayinger I noticed an aroma I didn't expect, turned around and saw tanks and pipes all labeled Sauergut.

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2021, 11:43:18 AM »
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery , and the brewer at UC Davis was doing HSA experiments when Bamforth left.

You also need to account for square-cube differences. Exposure of mash wort to oxygen is 5-10% or less vs homebrew exposure just on geometry, so differences would be less evident at a pro level.

Read also my separate comment.

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2021, 12:19:24 PM »
The evidence that there's hot side oxidation is not in doubt. Anyone that does the experiment can see that the wort exposed to oxygen is darker/ more oxidized. Are there degrees of oxidation? Yes. You can see that too if you do the experiments.

Does it make better beer? To some like German scholars it does, for the styles they use in experiments. Subtle beers in which pilsner wort is the star.
To others, including some small, traditional German breweries, it doesn't. Exposure to oxygen in the hot side is the hallmark of many styles.  Also, darker worts differences are less evident.
Sometimes the difference is only observed in flavor stability, which may not be as important for a small brewery producing one or two beers that are consumed fast.

Does it make better better?
Or not?
Or is not too style?
Or RDWHAHB?

Each homebrewer can decide.










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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2021, 02:17:41 PM »
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
Chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e covers the essentials of brewing extract+steep. 

Chapters 1 & 2 of Speed Brewing covers the essentials of brewing BIAB.

Is there a similar chapter in a book or single page at a web site (written, not video) that "puts it all together" for "Low oxygen" brewing?


I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Has been around since like 2016?
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Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2021, 02:28:15 PM »
I think we all agree with this:


Each homebrewer can decide.

…and this:

…"the cold side oxidation is much more important".


…because from this article:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

…we read this: “Preventing HSA: HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice. It has been my experience over the years that advocates of such procedures rarely stay with the hobby. Thus, on the homebrew level, HSA is a problem that seems to take care of itself.”



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« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 02:44:05 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2021, 02:35:25 PM »
Dave's not here, man.  Dave left the thread, man.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2021, 02:53:04 PM »
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
Chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e covers the essentials of brewing extract+steep. 

Chapters 1 & 2 of Speed Brewing covers the essentials of brewing BIAB.

Is there a similar chapter in a book or single page at a web site (written, not video) that "puts it all together" for "Low oxygen" brewing?


I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Has been around since like 2016?

Been aware of that for a while. Looking for an article / chapter in a book, not a web site.

Since the folks who distilled and surmised the process of professional to homebrew level procedures, have not yet, nor have no desire to write a book, I don't think you will not find one.
They did have an article in BYO, https://byo.com/article/methods-low-oxygen-brewhouse/

But since the polarization of a general professionally accepted methods, yet homebrew witch hunt, I'm not sure they want/care about sharing anything up to date and current with the community anymore.
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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2021, 02:56:48 PM »
Homebrew witch hunt...now that's funny!
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2021, 02:58:05 PM »
I think we all agree with this:


Each homebrewer can decide.

…and this:

…"the cold side oxidation is much more important".


…because from this article:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

…we read this: “Preventing HSA: HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice. It has been my experience over the years that advocates of such procedures rarely stay with the hobby. Thus, on the homebrew level, HSA is a problem that seems to take care of itself.”



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But you forgot this part  ;)

Quote
My own work has been sharply criticized, perhaps with some justification, for overemphasizing HSA. My posture came about primarily because of the dramatic effect that I observed when I eliminated HSA. In particular, the consistency of the performance of my beers in competitions dramatically improved when I eliminated HSA from my brewing process.


It's not doubt CSA is more important. Because you will NEVER see the benefits of one without the other. You will only ever see the effects of HSA, if there is no CSA.
Malt and Hop antioxidants (flavor positive), can only be there if the beer is not oxidized, since thats how antioxidants work.
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