Author Topic: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man  (Read 3549 times)

Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2021, 07:41:52 pm »
Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery …


Bamforth as mentioned now works for a Low oxygen brewery …


I found the fact that Dr Bamforth is now the Senior QC Advisor at Sierra Nevada interesting given his past comments. So, I sent Dr Smith a note asking if he could follow up with Dr Bamforth. He graciously did.

In reply Dr Bamforth sent an article he wrote for Brewer and Distiller dtd June 2021 based on the paper given to the 36th Biennial Convention of the IBD Asia-Pacific Section, March 2021. Much of the information remains the same as past information as that from BeerSmith podcasts and other interviews.

Within the article there is a statement that fairly accurately describes the entire article: “…keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.”

I found this interesting:  “Bear in mind that some people have recently suggested (contrary to what has long been supposed) that copper is not as big a negative as is iron.”

However, there was one noticeable change (“softening”?) from past interviews: under the heading Avoiding oxygen pick up during the process it says “I suggest that common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress are worthwhile, albeit less relevant than minimising oxygen level in the final package.” [emphasis is mine]. He goes on to name several of these common-sense approaches.

He ends the article in a very familiar way “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”

I have been accused of cherry picking information to suit my argument. I refute that claim but feel free to look up and read the complete article for yourself. 

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Thanks so much for taking the time!
Much appreciated 
For context, it's also important to mention that Bamforth has always stated that his observations apply to pro brewing.
And exposure to oxygen given the square-cube law is much, much lower in pro brewing vs home brewing, everything else being the same.
Cheers!




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Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2021, 07:45:32 pm »
Excellent information.  Thank you very much for your effort.



Thanks so much for taking the time!
Much appreciated 
For context, it's also important to mention that Bamforth has always stated that his observations apply to pro brewing.
And exposure to oxygen given the square-cube law is much, much lower in pro brewing vs home brewing, everything else being the same.
Cheers!

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Absolutely. He makes it clear that he’s not a homebrewer in every interview I’ve heard.

I’m still researching that square-cube law. (when an object increases in size, it’s volume increases faster that it’s area). Makes sense. They use larger vessels so surface area is smaller in relation to volume than our little vessels.

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« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 09:22:28 pm by BrewBama »

Offline Richard

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2021, 10:05:07 pm »
It isn't really a law, it's just a scaling relation. If it was a law there would be people trying to figure out how to break it...
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2021, 06:49:40 am »
Quote

It's not doubt CSA is more important. Because you will NEVER see the benefits of one without the other. You will only ever see the effects of HSA, if there is no CSA.
Malt and Hop antioxidants (flavor positive), can only be there if the beer is not oxidized, since thats how antioxidants work.


As I said is no doubt packaging proficiency is utmost and work back from there. The easiest way is to take a pale ale/ipa, package it, if you do not see ANY hop fade/flavor change during the ENTIRE life of it, thats a good start. Hop fade and flavor change IS oxidation.

Since we are on the Bamforth train...Excerpts from his "Freshness" (2017) book.




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Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2021, 07:38:32 am »
Thanks for the reference. I see no inconsistency between what’s listed in bold which are his “primary concerns” and his past comments. …even from his article published this month. The text that is italicized is a “secondary concern” and normal text is of “less concern” and may (his emphasis) help.



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« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 07:45:52 am by BrewBama »

Offline narcout

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2021, 07:44:01 am »
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2021, 07:50:34 am »
Thanks for the reference. I see no inconsistency between what’s listed in bold which are his “primary concerns” and his past comments. …even from his article published this month. The text that is italicized is a “secondary concern” and normal text is of “less concern” and may (his emphasis) help.



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Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2021, 07:54:34 am »
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...

I think it is marketed by Null-Lox by Viking Malt. I haven't run across it at my local shops web pages. May have to look harder online.
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2021, 07:55:42 am »
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...

I think it is marketed by Null-Lox by Viking Malt. I haven't run across it at my local shops web pages. May have to look harder online.

Cargill also makes one as well.
Science functions when theory correctly predicts the results of experiments.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2021, 08:03:35 am »
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Is that 100% confirmed?  It's something I have long wondered about.
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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2021, 08:04:46 am »
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Is that 100% confirmed?  It's something I have long wondered about.

At SN, yes they do.  Saw it when I was there years ago.
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Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2021, 08:09:25 am »
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...
I have a dislike for Pils malt probably due to to the Herbstoff. I’ve found Mecca Grade ‘Pilsner-style’ malt doesn’t give me the objectionable taste. Maybe the Full Pint barley they use has less of something (Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzyme?) that Continental barley does or the method they use to malt develops less.



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Offline BrewBama

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Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2021, 08:23:38 am »

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 08:55:49 am by BrewBama »

Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2021, 09:36:45 am »

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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Not sure why the snippyness? Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

But I seem to be the only one who HAS to support my position, which is interesting.
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2021, 10:09:38 am »
It isn't really a law, it's just a scaling relation. If it was a law there would be people trying to figure out how to break it...
I know you are joking
It's a mathematical principle but it's commonly known as a "law".

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