Author Topic: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help  (Read 209 times)

Offline blazingbeer

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Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« on: June 02, 2021, 05:49:02 AM »
So I am starting to develop a recipe to feel out some low ABV beer.

I have a rather interesting package of yeast:

"We bred a Saison strain and a Norwegian Kveik to produce this all-consuming giant of a yeast. A rare combination of diastatic and flocculent, making it a Saison yeast that is easy to crop and repitch. Expressive fruitiness but low banana ester."

So it is both STA1 and POF+. I have started to put together a recipe:

I am looking at a 23L batch using 1.36kg Pilsner (46.7%), 1.36kg Rye Malt (46.7%), and 190g Crystal 60 (6.5%). It is to give it a strong rye flavour and a little bit of colour.

Now two places where I am looking at this to not be like water is the yeast and the mash temperatures.

I know saisons are supposed to be somewhat dry, when I use the "Attenuates complex sugars" option in Brewfather it goes from 7.1P to -0.3P which pushes it up to 3.8% ABV. If this is the likely scenario, I would reduce my grain amount to keep it closer to 3.0% or less.

Without that option selected, it ends up at 1.3P, or just around 3.0% - which would be a decent place for what I am going for.

Is there a method of mashing that can produce unfermentables that won't be devoured by the glucoamylase from the STA1?

If it is the destiny of this yeast to make a super dry beer, I can always compensate with some hops.

Online pete b

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Re: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 11:30:34 AM »
Welcome to the forum, this is a great first post, I will be following for updates.
Relating to low abv some of us are discussing light beer brewing in a thread under Beer Recipes.
I do think that this is destined to be a very dry beer. Techniques such as a high mash temp or lots of specialty malts to provide high levels of unfermentables will be stymied by the nature of this yeast. I do feel like rye adds to a fuller mouthfeel so the large percentage of rye may help it seem like it has a bit more body. That being said, a nice dry saison in summer is very nice.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 11:35:55 AM »
A negative Plato finish is common with cider, mead, and wine, but not common in beer.  However in this low starting Plato beer, I think it is quite possible.  So I would use the assumptions of "7.1P to -0.3P which pushes it up to 3.8% ABV".

If you want to limit the fermentability a little bit, I would recommend a very short mash, only 30 minutes maximum, at a high temperature of about 71C.  You may still end up with your -0.3P finish, but you'll have even more dextrins in the finished beer, as the beta amylase denatures very quickly at 71C, and those dextrins will add body and fullness even with the low Plato finish.

Thanks for sharing you plans, this looks like a fun and interesting recipe to try.  Welcome to the forum!

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Offline erockrph

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Re: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2021, 05:07:45 AM »
All that rye malt should leave considerable body behind from beta glucans even if it ferments bone dry.

If I had to guess, the increased flocculation by crossing the diastaticus strain with a kviek strain may lead to slightly lower attenuation than a normal saison strain since the yeast will drop out sooner. I'd say somewhere around 1P is a likely place for you're recipe to finish.

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Offline Drewch

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Re: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2021, 01:00:09 PM »
With such a novel yeast, your best bet is probably to start with a small experimental batch, assume the ~80% apparent attenuation that the website quotes, and try it.  Then you can adjust for the real batch.

No sense gambling an entire 23L batch if you wind up having to dump it.
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Low ABV Rye Saison - methods and yeast could use some help
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 12:23:50 AM »
With respect to the yeast I would wonder how fast that yeast starts breaking down dextrins because if it's slow and you're going to drink the beer relatively quickly then you're probably fine treating this like any other saison recipe.

If it were me I would just steer into the skid. Design the beer to be 3% with the assumption you will have high attenuation and mash low so you don't have a lot of dextrins left to ferment out down the road. Rely upon the betaglucans and proteins from the rye malt to fill out the body. Bittering with low alpha hops will let you use more hops in the boil and in turn put more tannins into the beer which will also help boost mouthfeel and balance some of the oily feel of betaglucans. I would similarly add a late boil or whirlpool addition of low alpha hops to round out the beer and add more complexity to the body. Water-wise I would opt towards a more bitter profile.

A topic you didn't ask about is the crystal malt which I generally think doesn't belong in saisons and feels clunky in beers with such a low ABV but if there is a place for it in your design then you shouldn't let my personal preferences get in your way.
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