[Hernan Kotler]

Hi everyone!

Im about to brew a Baltic Porter. My idea is to mash the grains (base malt - crystal malts), except for the roasted malts all together.
Then in the lauterin add the roast malts.
My question is the following:
I usualy add phosphoric acid to the HLT to neutralize alkalinity (to avoid tannin extraction), but in this case, I dont really know if this is necesary, because the roasted malts will drop the ph a lot!
Suggestions?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Suggestions?

To get where you intend to go generally requires that you know where you are.  You may indeed know where you are (and we are talking beer here, not locations), but we do not.  No details have been provided.  Hopefully at least, the more details that are provided, the more reliable our guesses may tend to be.

[ynotbrusum]

First of all - welcome to the AHA Forum.  Silver_is_Money is correct, but here is a link to a recent thread discussing the issues associated with mashing in with roast vs. roast added at late mash/vorlauf:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=36491.0

There is a lot of discussion out there with some favoring Gordon Strong's late addition approach and some suggesting that getting pH right with the roast in the initial mash is preferred by them.  I say, try it both ways, but realize that hitting the boil kettle with the right pH may prove a bit more difficult with the mash cap/vorlauf approach.  I had at least one instance where I wanted a more tart dry stout, so I tried the vorlauf addition and it went too far down the acid scale for the beer style and I had to add some CaCO3 to correct the pH in the boil kettle.

[lupulus]

If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the dark grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the issues of having a pH change when adding them at the end of the mash.

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[Cliffs]

If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the dark grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the issues of having a pH change when adding them at the end of the mash.

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How would low dissolved oxygen in the mash affect the PH changes that roasted grains contribute?

[BrewBama]

Hi everyone!

Im about to brew a Baltic Porter. My idea is to mash the grains (base malt - crystal malts), except for the roasted malts all together.
Then in the lauterin add the roast malts.
My question is the following:
I usualy add phosphoric acid to the HLT to neutralize alkalinity (to avoid tannin extraction), but in this case, I dont really know if this is necesary, because the roasted malts will drop the ph a lot!
Suggestions?

G Strong advocates adding malts that don’t require mashing after the main mash is complete as well as adding phosphoric acid to brewhaus liquor to bring it below 5.5 pH in Brewing Better Beer. …but like Denny said, he says it’s not required if you don’t have astringent problems.

As far as steeping grains, in How to Brew Chap 13, J Palmer says “ The factors that influence how well the sugars are extracted are the steeping time, temperature and the particle size.”

He goes on: “Steeping specialty grain is like making tea. The crushed grain is soaked in hot 150 - 170°F degree water for 30 minutes. Even though a color change will be noticeable early on, steep for the entire 30 minutes to get as much of the available sugar dissolved into the wort as possible.”

Ref: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/steeping-specialty-grains/mechanics-of-steeping

I have used these methods with great success. I add grains that don’t require mashing at the mash out (15 min) + sparge (15 min) to meet the 30 min hot steep ‘rule’.

Like Cliffs, I don’t see how low dissolved oxygen would make any difference in the mash pH using these techniques.

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[denny]

If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the dark grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the issues of having a pH change when adding them at the end of the mash.

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I don't do low oxygen mashes and I add the dark grains s for the whole mash.  Obviously there's no pH change at the end of the mash.  What am I missing?

[lupulus]

The argument from Gordon Strong, if you accept it, is that adding roasted grains at the beginning of the mash results in stale flavors (he makes a reference to stale coffee IIRC). These flavors are oxidation flavors.
If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the roasted grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the stale flavors he's referring to.
Cheers!

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[lupulus]

If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the dark grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the issues of having a pH change when adding them at the end of the mash.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

How would low dissolved oxygen in the mash affect the PH changes that roasted grains contribute?

The point is that if you do low oxygen, you can add the roasted grains at the beginning of the mash, adjusting pH as you would normally do, with the benefit of avoiding the stale (oxidation) flavors Gordon is referring to, and you won't have a large pH decrease at vorlauf (because you already added the roasted grains).

Low oxygen brewing doesn't have a measurable effect on pH. Sulfites affect pH slightly but if you use them, you can account for it in your calculations.

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[BrewBama]

While we can all agree oxidation is bad and we each take practical steps to mitigate against it, I don’t think you’ve characterized what G Strong described correctly.

The only reference to stale coffee [sitting on a burning all day] that I could find was when he was using it as an example in describing the harsh bitterness he gets from dark grains being soaked in hot water/wort too long.

G Strong in Brewing Better Beer pg 43-44 is describing harsh bitterness and astringency from the dark grain’s husk material soaking for long periods in hot water/wort. He even goes so far as to describe a cold steep and adds the steeping liquid during or after the boil to avoid the harsh bitterness. He’s very clear in that respect.

Randy Mosher in Mastering Homebrew notes that very few grains are malted and produced in the color range from roughly 80 to 250 Lovibond. The reason for this is that malts produced in this “harsh zone” have many harsh flavors including strong tannic, coffee, burnt marshmallow flavors that can easily overpower other malts.

That’s why malts such as Special B, very dark caramel malts, dark brown malts, aromatic malts, and even light chocolate malts should be used very sparingly.

Maltsters must agree because some darker malts even come in “debittered” or “dehusked” versions to try to soften their flavor.

Or… Are you saying oxidation is the cause for harsh bitterness/ astringency from dark grains? 

As you said, Low oxygen brewing doesn't have a measurable effect on pH. …but dark grains do. G Strong addresses this and is also clear that his primary concern in the mash is pH. He describes holding grains that don’t require mashing to the mash out/sparge, or steeping them and adding them later, to eliminate impact on pH.

I fall somewhere in the middle. I like a bit of the bitterness bite so I add malts that don’t require mashing to the mash out (15 min) + sparge (15 min) for Palmer’s 30 min hot steep. Works for me. YMMV

I’ve done this seven times now and it works as advertised. Hold grains that don’t require mashing to the mash out/sparge, add 1 tsp CaCl, gypsum or a combination of the two to equal 1 tsp in 5 gal distilled water gets me 5.3 +/- .1 mash pH every single time. No more spreadsheets, no more gram scales.



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[Silver_Is_Money]

All malts are acidic. Both the Alkalinity in ones source water, and added Baking Soda Alkalinity work wonders to offset the excess of acidity that inherently comes along with deep roasted malts and/or dark crystal malts.  As does initially selecting a base malt with a high degree of what can be conceived of as a sort of quasi or pseudo-Alkalinity with respect to ones chosen target mash pH. All that is required is to have a sound general understanding of the relative acidity or basicity of each of the building blocks (in conjunction with each of their respective masses or volumes) whereby to Alkalinity balance them in accordance with the mash pH target, which I ideally believe to be 5.55 pH if measured at room temperature, or pH 5.4 if measured at mash temperature.  This is what I meant by stating that one needs to know where they are in order to get where they want to go.

If one takes this fundamentally logical approach there is no need to effectively play a faith based version of Russian Roulette and add the darker and more acidic so-called steeping malts and/or unmalted grains late in the game (and potentially to likely suffer a reduction in efficiency thereby).

Edit:  When I speak of a sound general understanding of the relative acidity or basicity of each of the building blocks, I'm referring to units of milliequivalents, or mEq's.

[BrewBama]

…
If one takes this fundamentally logical approach there is no need to effectively play a faith based version of Russian Roulette and add the darker and more acidic so-called steeping malts and/or unmalted grains late in the game (and potentially to likely suffer a reduction in efficiency thereby).

…

I have far more than faith to base my decision to employ these techniques. I have repeatable results.

My software of choice (BeerSmith) takes into account whether a grain is steeped vs added to the mash to get the equivalent SRM and OG. This is done behind the scene so I don’t have to be a mathematician to brew a beer. Besides, it’s usually a very small difference (an oz or so) to close the slight gap. Far from a Russian Roulette-style guess.  I could simply accept the tiny OG and SRM reduction and be fine with it. …but I usually add the extra bit if I have it.

While I certainly understand that not everyone will adopt G Strong’s methods for various reasons — which is perfectly acceptable, blind faith and Russian Roulette should not be listed among the reasons for the decision.

As Denny says, he just adds everything up front and deals with the pH based on a spreadsheet. I imagine he and many others are pleased with this method. That’s great. I have yet to brew a Porter, but I have one on the docket and will be looking for Denny’s insipidness by adding dark grains late in the mash for a 30 min hot steep. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/gordon-strong-american-porter/

I choose not to use an additional spreadsheet and things have turned out great as well.  I agree with Mr Strong’s assertion: “Most dark grains are simply added for flavor and color, so why let them ruin your mash chemistry and drive unwanted salt additions?”

I’d rather focus on achieving a correct mash pH with a simple technique than dealing with spreadsheets and/or mathematical formulas trying to engineer a water profile.  If it didn’t work I’d be the first to abandon it and speak against it. …but it does work — spot on 7 times in a row.

[lupulus]

@BrewBama
There are plenty of references on staleness of roasted coffee by oxidation. Gordon Strong is just trying to use a well known analogy.
Yes, the astringency, harshness he's trying to avoid by adding the roasted grains at vorlauf comes from oxidation.
The pH issue is that you set your preferred mash pH for conversion and upon adding the dark grains at vorlauf you significantly decrease pH, below 5 in some cases depending on the buffering of your mash.
I don't know whether this is good or bad, but it's my educated guess that if your EOB pH is 4.8 , your beer will be different from a beer made with a wort having 5.4 EOB pH.


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[denny]

The argument from Gordon Strong, if you accept it, is that adding roasted grains at the beginning of the mash results in stale flavors (he makes a reference to stale coffee IIRC). These flavors are oxidation flavors.
If you do low oxygen mashing, you can add the roasted grains at the beginning of the mash and avoid the stale flavors he's referring to.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the explanation.

[BrewBama]

@BrewBama
There are plenty of references on staleness of roasted coffee by oxidation. Gordon Strong is just trying to use a well known analogy.
Yes, the astringency, harshness he's trying to avoid by adding the roasted grains at vorlauf comes from oxidation.
The pH issue is that you set your preferred mash pH for conversion and upon adding the dark grains at vorlauf you significantly decrease pH, below 5 in some cases depending on the buffering of your mash.
I don't know whether this is good or bad, but it's my educated guess that if your EOB pH is 4.8 , your beer will be different from a beer made with a wort having 5.4 EOB pH.


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as I said in another thread I have only taken finished beer pH a couple times because someone asked (I think Robert). If I remember correctly, it was around 4.6-4.8 pH. …but this was long before I began holding dark grains to the mash out/sparge. I don’t recall taking end of boil pH.

Edit: can you point me in the direction of the references you are alluding to?  I’ve read all sorts of oxidation fault terms and simply don’t seem to be running across harshness/astringency as a result.

I’ve seen acetic acid, acetaldehyde, almond, black currant, cardboard, cat pee, cheesy, dark fruit, dullness, haziness, inky, Fusel alcohol, esters, grassiness, honey flavor, horsey, isovaleric acid (cheesy), leathery, licorice, metallic, musty, nutty, rancid oil, raisins, rotten fruit, sherry, solventy, spicy, staleness, sweetness, walnut, etc….  So many due to the various chemicals that can be oxidized. Also characterized as a drop in hop bitterness, hop flavor and aroma.

The only ‘harshness’ I can find associated with oxidation is in describing metallic, in conjunction with sulfates, or higher alcohols.

But nowhere can I see a reference to harshness, bitterness, astringency, etc., due to malt oxidation. In fact, it’s the opposite: dullness as far as I can tell.

However, I did find a side bar to determine the difference between grain vs water vs hop astringency that can come from dark grain vs mineral rich water vs high hop level. When referring to grain astringency compounds such as isobutyraldehyde which are naturally found in grain husks can cause astringency.

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