Author Topic: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor  (Read 354 times)

Offline Surfskikite13

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Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« on: June 10, 2021, 01:49:21 PM »
So I have recently been playing around with these magnesium granules from this new beverage company (I won't plug the brand unless people would like to try) and it's been very interesting. The flavor profile of all my beers has been drastically altered. Good and bad ways.

Has anyone used or thought of using an ingredient like magnesium in a beer? I also hear magnesium is good for you in small doses. Let me know.

Cheers!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2021, 01:53:55 PM »
Magnesium tastes terrible to me.  I wouldn't use more than like 1/8 teaspoon in a batch of beer.  It is too easy to overdo.
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Offline Surfskikite13

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2021, 02:02:49 PM »
Yea I only put the mag. in the beer once I am ready to bottle/can it. Around 30 millgrams in each bottle. Also I read you need to give it at least 24 hrs to react...there is quite the chemical reaction that occurs. Seems to add more bubbles to the beer and lighten it out in my opinion.

Offline Bob357

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2021, 02:39:20 PM »
Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) are commonly used in adjusting brewing water to add more sulfate without increasing the Calcium level. Moderate amounts can also help to enhance hop presence. 1 gram in a gallon of water adds ~26 ppm Magnesium and ~104 ppm Sulfate. Magnesium levels higher than 40 ppm can severely affect flavor, so it's important to know what the level is in your source water before making additions.
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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2021, 04:19:58 PM »
Is it magnesium carbonate?  A mineral which finds use as an antacid for acid stomachs...  If so, it will react with the acidity of the bottled beer to liberate CO2 gas, and in sufficient quantity it could lead to bottle bombs.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 04:22:16 PM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 06:37:02 PM »
The "safe" way to achieve a somewhat milder hop bitterness is to adjust your room temperature measured pre-boil Wort pH to 5.1-5.2.  The higher the Wort pH is leading into boil, the harsher will be the bitterness that one extracts from their hops.

The only potential snag in the ointment that I'm aware of here is that to achieve the same analytical measure of IBU's, it takes a bit more hops when entering the boil at a room temperature measured 5.1-5.2 pH than it does when entering the boil at say a room temperature measured 5.4-5.5 pH.  But if the goal is milder hop nature for the same measure of IBU's as seen on the test bench, then adjusting to 5.1-5.2 pH and compensating via the addition of a bit more hops is the ticket.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 06:46:48 PM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2021, 07:08:57 PM »
The "safe" way to achieve a somewhat milder hop bitterness is to adjust your room temperature measured pre-boil Wort pH to 5.1-5.2.  The higher the Wort pH is leading into boil, the harsher will be the bitterness that one extracts from their hops.

The only potential snag in the ointment that I'm aware of here is that to achieve the same analytical measure of IBU's, it takes a bit more hops when entering the boil at a room temperature measured 5.1-5.2 pH than it does when entering the boil at say a room temperature measured 5.4-5.5 pH.  But if the goal is milder hop nature for the same measure of IBU's as seen on the test bench, then adjusting to 5.1-5.2 pH and compensating via the addition of a bit more hops is the ticket.
Is there a specific compound that the lower boil pH is affecting the extraction of? I'm curious of the chemistry behind this.

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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2021, 07:20:10 PM »
Is there a specific compound that the lower boil pH is affecting the extraction of? I'm curious of the chemistry behind this.


I can only report the documented findings.  I don't sufficiently understand the science of hop utilization whereby to define the chemistry behind the findings.

Offline erockrph

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 08:46:43 PM »
Is there a specific compound that the lower boil pH is affecting the extraction of? I'm curious of the chemistry behind this.


I can only report the documented findings.  I don't sufficiently understand the science of hop utilization whereby to define the chemistry behind the findings.
Fair enough. The desired character of hop bitterness may be different for pale lager vs West Coast IPA vs NE IPA, so that's sort of the driving force for my curiosity here. I guess I'll just have to try it out for myself.

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Offline Surfskikite13

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2021, 03:04:04 PM »
Yea lots of talk here. This is the company I got the tech from. I had a great time playing around with the granules. Real easy and forsure created a lighter taste and honestly made me feel less bloated.

hyinfused.com

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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 04:03:28 PM »
Is there a specific compound that the lower boil pH is affecting the extraction of? I'm curious of the chemistry behind this.

I dug through Wiley Online and came across this 1975 document (link below).  See Table XI on page 68 at the bottom left.  It shows that in their tests:

1) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.78 exited the boil at a pH of 5.48.  Drop = 0.30 pH points.
2) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.64 exited the boil at a pH of 5.41.  Drop = 0.23 pH points.
3) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.48 exited the boil at a pH of 5.30.  Drop = 0.18 pH points.
4) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.32 exited the boil at a pH of 5.19.  Drop = 0.13 pH points.

This confirms that the higher the initial pH the greater the across the boil pH drop, and visa-versa.  The table data is said to be sourced from Narziss.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03663.x
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 04:05:44 PM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2021, 04:13:01 PM »
Yea lots of talk here. This is the company I got the tech from. I had a great time playing around with the granules. Real easy and forsure created a lighter taste and honestly made me feel less bloated.

hyinfused.com

Cheers
It's kind of disturbing that this product is being sold as a food additive, but doesn't even list the ingredients on the website (or the label, from what I can see). It's being marketed as a method for creating hydrogen bubbles in beverages, so I'm guessing that this is some relative of Magnesium Hydride? The whole thing seems a bit sketchy to me...
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Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2021, 04:26:22 PM »
Is there a specific compound that the lower boil pH is affecting the extraction of? I'm curious of the chemistry behind this.

I dug through Wiley Online and came across this 1975 document (link below).  See Table XI on page 68 at the bottom left.  It shows that in their tests:

1) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.78 exited the boil at a pH of 5.48.  Drop = 0.30 pH points.
2) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.64 exited the boil at a pH of 5.41.  Drop = 0.23 pH points.
3) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.48 exited the boil at a pH of 5.30.  Drop = 0.18 pH points.
4) A Wort which at beginning of the boil had a room temp. pH of 5.32 exited the boil at a pH of 5.19.  Drop = 0.13 pH points.

This confirms that the higher the initial pH the greater the across the boil pH drop, and visa-versa.  The table data is said to be sourced from Narziss.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1975.tb03663.x

I don't think that addresses the actual question though.
Why/what a lower boil pH is extracting/isomerizing differently/less/more than a higher said pH.

As to the original post though, I think more information is needed.

Like:
Beer style
hops
beer recipe
Flavor how so?
Hop?
Malt?
etc etc

It kind of super vague to actually answer.

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Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2021, 04:33:41 PM »
I don't think that addresses the actual question though.
Why/what a lower boil pH is extracting/isomerizing differently/less/more than a higher said pH.

Oops, I really missed the boat on explaining the contention I raised earlier, whereby a higher boil pH leads to a perception of harsher bitterness, and visa-versa.  That discussion is actually seen at the lower right hand corner of page 68 in the same Wiley Online sourced document.  Same page...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 04:37:02 PM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline hmbrw4life

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Re: Reducing Bitterness/Enhancing Flavor
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2021, 05:01:27 PM »
I don't think that addresses the actual question though.
Why/what a lower boil pH is extracting/isomerizing differently/less/more than a higher said pH.

Oops, I really missed the boat on explaining the contention I raised earlier, whereby a higher boil pH leads to a perception of harsher bitterness, and visa-versa.  That discussion is actually seen at the lower right hand corner of page 68 in the same Wiley Online sourced document.  Same page...

Yes, I saw the discussion and its relevant table on the next page. Unless I missed it, it is not using HLPC or similar graphing to determine actual constituents. Just the generic "Higher pH extracts more bitterness substance", which is common place throughout professional literature.
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