Author Topic: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen  (Read 1593 times)

Offline Visor

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2021, 03:03:28 pm »
  I have a 5# bottle, regulator and a 0.5 micron stone, set the regulator at 0.5 lpm and give it 60 seconds. At that rate IIRC I got a couple hundred batches out of the 1st bottle. I also have read somewhere [maybe Palmer?] that pure O2 can kill yeast, at least under the wrong circumstances. As with yeast nutrient I figure it's cheap insurance.
I spent most of my money on beer, tools and guns, the rest I foolishly squandered on stupid stuff!

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2021, 04:07:59 pm »
+1 -- I can get 6-10 batches off one tank

I get about 110 batches off one tank. Obviously we're oxygenating very differently. I wish it was feasible to test how much oxygen is being added...

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2021, 05:50:52 pm »
Aerating the wort before it has reached the ferment temp is generally a bad idea. Ideally it should only be done after pitch or very close to pitching.

I agree with this. Otherwise the oxygen is doing something else in the wort, regardless of what that something else might be.

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2021, 06:02:24 pm »
We're now in the realm of (possible) brewing mythology. "I heard this somewhere...I read this somewhere...I recall this...I recall that...from this or that brewer/homebrewer..." etc. Anecdotes passed down from "experts."

Is there credible, peer-reviewed, real-world-applicable literature on this, from actual brewing scientists, re: brewing strains of S. cerevisiae specifically? Talk to me, Dr. Bamforth.

I'll add my own anecdote: I've likely over-oxygenated quite a bit. I now even oxygenate my 1-liter starters with the O2 tank and wand. Never had an issue with yeast performance or, most importantly, the final product. But the plural of anecdote is not "data". Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) is definitely a thing for all aerobes on this planet. But I'm not sure they have affected my beer yet.

If too much oxygen (within reason; see my previous comment) is toxic to brewing yeast, I feel like I would know by now. Could this be yet another brewing myth?

Offline jjflash

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
  • New Mexico
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2021, 08:59:41 pm »
For low gravity beer less than 1.060 simple aeration provides ample oxygenation.
For high gravity beer I use 1 PPM per degree Plato oxygen.
Without a good DO (dissolved oxygen) meter it is impossible to tell how much oxygen you are putting in.
As a friend once told me, it is like turning on the shower and telling me to turn it off at 16 gallons - near impossible.
For most of us we used trial and error method  - 10 minutes and beer okay, next time lets try 5 minutes and see if still good, then 2 minutes.....
I have use high quality DO meter for years.
The amount of oxygen actually getting into the wort I discovered can be quite variable depending upon technique.
The good news is, early on I also discovered oxygen readily diffuses out of the wort.
So if you shoot too in much oxygen, over oxygenated, it just comes right out of solution within a short time.
---JJ---

I don't know half of you half as well as I should, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- Bilbo Baggins

Offline mabrungard

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2849
  • Water matters!
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2021, 07:31:20 am »
+1 -- I can get 6-10 batches off one tank

I get about 110 batches off one tank. Obviously we're oxygenating very differently. I wish it was feasible to test how much oxygen is being added...

I'm not sure that I get that many batches out of a red bottle, but it has proven to be a lot of batches.  If you can see bubbles at the surface of your wort, your O2 flow rate is too high or the diffuser isn't deep enough.  Anything escaping the wort is wasted.  It takes a low flow rate and longer duration to properly use O2.  Blasting...is wasting.   
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://www.brunwater.com/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brun-Water-464551136933908/?ref=bookmarks

Offline narcout

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2143
  • Los Angeles, CA
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2021, 08:50:34 am »
We're now in the realm of (possible) brewing mythology. "I heard this somewhere...I read this somewhere...I recall this...I recall that...from this or that brewer/homebrewer..." etc. Anecdotes passed down from "experts."

Is there credible, peer-reviewed, real-world-applicable literature on this, from actual brewing scientists, re: brewing strains of S. cerevisiae specifically? Talk to me, Dr. Bamforth.

Below are links to two articles that have been previously been posted on this forum by other members.  I expect there are many more out there (and I think this is probably true regarding most of the technical questions that come up here; we have access to so much professional literature these days).

The effect of wort aeration on fermentation, maturation and volatile components of beer produced on an industrial scale: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.392

Oxygen in brewery fermentation:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb03614.x
Sometimes you just can't get enough - JAMC

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25636
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2021, 09:38:33 am »
We're now in the realm of (possible) brewing mythology. "I heard this somewhere...I read this somewhere...I recall this...I recall that...from this or that brewer/homebrewer..." etc. Anecdotes passed down from "experts."

Is there credible, peer-reviewed, real-world-applicable literature on this, from actual brewing scientists, re: brewing strains of S. cerevisiae specifically? Talk to me, Dr. Bamforth.

I'll add my own anecdote: I've likely over-oxygenated quite a bit. I now even oxygenate my 1-liter starters with the O2 tank and wand. Never had an issue with yeast performance or, most importantly, the final product. But the plural of anecdote is not "data". Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) is definitely a thing for all aerobes on this planet. But I'm not sure they have affected my beer yet.

If too much oxygen (within reason; see my previous comment) is toxic to brewing yeast, I feel like I would know by now. Could this be yet another brewing myth?

Now?  What do you mean "now"?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11190
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2021, 09:38:52 am »
+1 -- I can get 6-10 batches off one tank

I get about 110 batches off one tank. Obviously we're oxygenating very differently. I wish it was feasible to test how much oxygen is being added...

Off on one of those little red welding tanks? I should go back and clarify that I can get 6-10 batches but that was based off of when I did 12 gallon batches many years ago. Now I'm doing about 6 gallon and also 5L and I've had the same red tank for a pretty long time ... no idea how many batches. But I find it nearly impossible to believe that you re using the little red welding o2 tanks and getting over 110 batches.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 09:42:07 am by majorvices »

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2021, 10:01:26 am »
+1 -- I can get 6-10 batches off one tank

I get about 110 batches off one tank. Obviously we're oxygenating very differently. I wish it was feasible to test how much oxygen is being added...

Off on one of those little red welding tanks? I should go back and clarify that I can get 6-10 batches but that was based off of when I did 12 gallon batches many years ago. Now I'm doing about 6 gallon and also 5L and I've had the same red tank for a pretty long time ... no idea how many batches. But I find it nearly impossible to believe that you re using the little red welding o2 tanks and getting over 110 batches.

Yes, same bottles. As I wrote in my earlier comment, with my last bottle I got 155 minutes of aeration (I put a tick mark on the bottle for each minute). Most of my brews are ales, which get 1 min. My lagers get 2 min. 110 batches is an estimate, but it's close.

Again, you just want a fine mist of bubbles coming from the stone. That way most of it dissolves. If you see froth on the surface of your wort, that's wasted oxygen.

I'm obviously using a heck of a lot less oxygen than you. My guess is you're still getting adequate oxygen dissolved into you wort, but with a lot of wasted oxygen as well.

EDIT: I recounted the tick marks. I got 147 minutes from the bottle, not 155. Still in the neighborhood of 100 batches.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 10:26:11 am by RC »

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11190
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2021, 11:28:10 am »
Wow. That's amazing. I only use a fine mist of bubbles so I'm still surprised. I saw another thread someone managed to hood a flow meter up to those red bottles. That would be a good start of understanding "how much" is added. But of course, without a DO meter it's just a good guess.

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2021, 11:59:25 am »
Wow. That's amazing. I only use a fine mist of bubbles so I'm still surprised. I saw another thread someone managed to hood a flow meter up to those red bottles. That would be a good start of understanding "how much" is added. But of course, without a DO meter it's just a good guess.
Maybe I have a smaller-sized aeration stone? The one I use is 1" long by about 3/8" diameter.

Offline chumley

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1111
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2021, 04:48:57 pm »
I am definitely in the camp of majorvices on how many uses I get out of those little red disposable oxygen tanks. Over a hundred uses is mind boggling. Maybe I need to use less. I have had well attenuated beer for years now, though, since I started using those, so I am hesitant to mess with success, as I can afford those pricy little tanks.

Offline BrewNerd

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Aquarium Pump vs. Pure Oxygen
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2021, 08:57:10 am »
I consulted my library (pile of beer books threatening to snap my shelf in half) and found the following:

Palmer used an aquarium pump with an in-line HEPA filter to oxygenate (How to Brew 4th ed. page 97) Avoids the dangers of over oxygenating when you're using normal air.

He also follows Jamil's thought process of getting off flavors when using too much straight O2.

No mention of needing a filter on an O2 bottle.