[fredthecat]

and ferment it cool.

i don't know how else to say this, but i keep thinking about it. i am envisioning an all barley beer with 10-20% munich, 5% crystal and the rest vienna or pilsner and ferment it with a mix of a neutral yeast and weizen yeast. it will be fully cleared with gelatin and time. 20-25 IBU

i want a highly subdued weizen spice flavour and also to see if all barley will even make clove/banana precursors for the yeast. (im assuming it wont?)

[dmtaylor]

It might seem counter-intuitive, but you'll actually get more clove from more barley / less wheat.  But then banana is the opposite, comes more from the wheat portion.  Learn this and a whole lot more here:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

If I were going to try to dilute down the clove & banana, I'd suggest splitting the batch and use your two different yeasts separately rather than together, then blend them near the end of the fermentation, as opposed to pitching both right away up front.  This will ensure the flavor is actually diluted.  Only trouble with this method is, invariably, the two yeasts attenuate differently, so if bottling you'll need to blend the two batches then let them sit an additional ~week to ensure no gushers.  I've gotten gushers a couple of times from blending batches so this is a real possibility, even if you think the attenuation of each yeast is about the same, it's not.  So I guess the alternative is to just co-pitch up front, which I have not tried, but my theory there is that one yeast will just out-rank the other and you won't get what you intended.

[fredthecat]

It might seem counter-intuitive, but you'll actually get more clove from more barley / less wheat.  But then banana is the opposite, comes more from the wheat portion.  Learn this and a whole lot more here:

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

If I were going to try to dilute down the clove & banana, I'd suggest splitting the batch and use your two different yeasts separately rather than together, then blend them near the end of the fermentation, as opposed to pitching both right away up front.  This will ensure the flavor is actually diluted.  Only trouble with this method is, invariably, the two yeasts attenuate differently, so if bottling you'll need to blend the two batches then let them sit an additional ~week to ensure no gushers.  I've gotten gushers a couple of times from blending batches so this is a real possibility, even if you think the attenuation of each yeast is about the same, it's not.  So I guess the alternative is to just co-pitch up front, which I have not tried, but my theory there is that one yeast will just out-rank the other and you won't get what you intended.

very interesting, thanks dave. i think i will still go ahead with this at some point.

[fredthecat]

ok, i post this here as it MAY be of interest to some.

i made this thread in my interpretation of the franconian rotbier style added to GABF or BJCP(? cant remember which). it just seemed silly to me to make this style which was so close to munich dunkel if it was a lager.

so i began thinking of what yeast might have been used pre 1850s when bottom fermented pale beer started proliferating.

doing some research, it seems i imagined wrong. https://www.maischemalzundmehr.de/index.php?id=1187&inhaltmitte=rezept

you can google translate this, which i did for ease of course, though i believe some people here know german well.

but apparently nuremberg is the city that has the oldest recorded use of bottom fermenting yeast, back to the 14th century. yet of course later in history (or at least mentioned as later) they had white wheat beers fermented with both top and bottom yeast.

i am still going to try this something i have in mind that is a light-med munichmalt-heavy red beer with a slightly spicy palate

[Descardeci]

ok, i post this here as it MAY be of interest to some.

i made this thread in my interpretation of the franconian rotbier style added to GABF or BJCP(? cant remember which). it just seemed silly to me to make this style which was so close to munich dunkel if it was a lager.

so i began thinking of what yeast might have been used pre 1850s when bottom fermented pale beer started proliferating.

doing some research, it seems i imagined wrong. https://www.maischemalzundmehr.de/index.php?id=1187&inhaltmitte=rezept

you can google translate this, which i did for ease of course, though i believe some people here know german well.

but apparently nuremberg is the city that has the oldest recorded use of bottom fermenting yeast, back to the 14th century. yet of course later in history (or at least mentioned as later) they had white wheat beers fermented with both top and bottom yeast.

i am still going to try this something i have in mind that is a light-med munichmalt-heavy red beer with a slightly spicy palate

 That something trully interesting, if you can keep the post update would be awesome, and I would go with some weiss yeast that is light in the esther and phenol side, something like the bavarian wheat blend or german wheat for clarificantion

[fredthecat]

 That something trully interesting, if you can keep the post update would be awesome, and I would go with some weiss yeast that is light in the esther and phenol side, something like the bavarian wheat blend or german wheat for clarificantion

thanks. i just feel like weiss yeasts can be so great, but there is very little done with them AFAIK other than make 7-20 IBU weiss/weizenbock/rye weiss(?) etc style beers.

i will do this, but it likely wont be october or november.

[denny]

and ferment it cool.

i don't know how else to say this, but i keep thinking about it. i am envisioning an all barley beer with 10-20% munich, 5% crystal and the rest vienna or pilsner and ferment it with a mix of a neutral yeast and weizen yeast. it will be fully cleared with gelatin and time. 20-25 IBU

i want a highly subdued weizen spice flavour and also to see if all barley will even make clove/banana precursors for the yeast. (im assuming it wont?)

How will you control it to get the blend you want?

[Descardeci]

and ferment it cool.

i don't know how else to say this, but i keep thinking about it. i am envisioning an all barley beer with 10-20% munich, 5% crystal and the rest vienna or pilsner and ferment it with a mix of a neutral yeast and weizen yeast. it will be fully cleared with gelatin and time. 20-25 IBU

i want a highly subdued weizen spice flavour and also to see if all barley will even make clove/banana precursors for the yeast. (im assuming it wont?)

How will you control it to get the blend you want?

maybe feluric acid rest? and pick a yeast from the low spectrum of weizen yeast? That is what I would do, and not hope the get something that I want in the first run actually, this might be something that need to try some time before hit the mark

[denny]

and ferment it cool.

i don't know how else to say this, but i keep thinking about it. i am envisioning an all barley beer with 10-20% munich, 5% crystal and the rest vienna or pilsner and ferment it with a mix of a neutral yeast and weizen yeast. it will be fully cleared with gelatin and time. 20-25 IBU

i want a highly subdued weizen spice flavour and also to see if all barley will even make clove/banana precursors for the yeast. (im assuming it wont?)

How will you control it to get the blend you want?

maybe feluric acid rest? and pick a yeast from the low spectrum of weizen yeast? That is what I would do, and not hope the get something that I want in the first run actually, this might be something that need to try some time before hit the mark

No, I'm thinking of the yeast.  How do you get each to work without dominating?

[Cliffs]

I think brewing a traditional weizen and an american style wheat beer and then blending to taste would be a much better and more controlled way to achieve what you're hoping to achieve

[neuse]

I think brewing a traditional weizen and an american style wheat beer and then blending to taste would be a much better and more controlled way to achieve what you're hoping to achieve

I did something sort of similar by mixing some Hefeweizen and Nut Brown Ale in a glass. I liked it - but don't plan to do it on a regular basis.

[RC]

Overbuild your recipe so that you have ~1-2 gal extra wort at the end. Use the weizen yeast on this overage. Use the neutral yeast on the main batch. Blend to taste. Since you only want a subdued clove character, you won't need much of the weizen batch.

[denny]

I think brewing a traditional weizen and an american style wheat beer and then blending to taste would be a much better and more controlled way to achieve what you're hoping to achieve

THIS!!  When you want to use 2 yeasts, blending is pretty always a better option.

[erockrph]

I think brewing a traditional weizen and an american style wheat beer and then blending to taste would be a much better and more controlled way to achieve what you're hoping to achieve

THIS!!  When you want to use 2 yeasts, blending is pretty always a better option.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. When you blend yeasts in the same beer the resulting beer is NOT the same as blending two finished beers each brewed with one of the yeast. You will often get the flavor contribution from one yeast, coupled with the attenuation and/or flocculation characteristics from the other. Relative pitching rates don't make as big of a difference as you think, based on my experience, either. You could probably dial this in over several batches, but if this is a one off brew you are definitely rolling the dice.

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