Membership questions? Log in issues? Email info@brewersassociation.org

Author Topic: Nugget vs. Magnum hops as a generic/universal bittering addition hop choice?  (Read 7250 times)

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.
Yep, and as a matter of fact every time I try a lower temperature whirlpool I regret it. I always find iso-AA bitterness far more pleasing than the other stuff that comes along for the ride.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline tommymorris

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3869
I usually bitter with one of same hops I will use later in the boil. The main reason is I have all my hops in vacuum sealed bags. The bags can be hard to reseal if I only take a small amount out before resealing (as is the case for high alpha bittering hops not used elsewhere in the recipe).

I brew 3 gallon batches so that exaggerates the problem.

PS. I agree with everything above about the goodness of the hops being discussed. They are good.

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11336
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.
Yep, and as a matter of fact every time I try a lower temperature whirlpool I regret it. I always find iso-AA bitterness far more pleasing than the other stuff that comes along for the ride.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Totally agree. I quit doing that a year ago.

Offline ttash

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Sorry I brought up cohumulone levels. I should have just said I like Horizon more than other bittering only hops because I've used it a lot, and it works best for me, based on my experience. Do your own experiments and make your own choices.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
Sorry I brought up cohumulone levels. I should have just said I like Horizon more than other bittering only hops because I've used it a lot, and it works best for me, based on my experience. Do your own experiments and make your own choices.

Nothing wrong with bringing up something for debate!

I've used many bittering hops for various styles over the years and I can't say that I've noticed any correlation with CoH levels. For example, Galena and Cascade have higher CoH than Columbus and Chinook, but I find that the former have smoother bittering qualities than the latter. I think Vic Secret has the highest CoH levels out there, but I use several ounces in extended hot whirlpools all the time and I've never noticed any added harshness compared to lower CoH varieties like Simcoe or Citra.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline dmtaylor

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 4730
  • Lord Idiot the Lazy
    • YEAST MASTER Perma-Living
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

This has more to do with inadequacy of IBU calculators, not with some mysterious hop oils.  A chemical reaction isn't prevented or doesn't stop just because the temperature is reduced a little. Isomerization continues at a slower rate. I can send you my IBU equation that includes whirlpool hop additions, stand by...

EDIT:  On second thought... the isomerization rate at your very low whirlpool temperature of ~130 F becomes tiny and negligible, so maybe there really is something else entirely going on at that low temperature.  But I think we can still both be correct...

FWIW, my formula is based on empirical utilization data (from Palmer), emulation of Tinseth, and my assertion that you'll get about half the IBUs at approximately 170 F compared to what you would get during the boil.
 So, here it is.

     IBU = oz * AA% * [sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V + sqrt(2*HStime)/V]

Calculate for each different hop addition, then take the sum.  V is volume in gallons.  Boiltime and HStime (Hop Stand time) need to be entered in minutes of course.

Regarding gravity effects:

This works best for worts of "normal" specific gravity of about 1.050-1.060, and warm temperatures >160 F -ish.
At higher gravity (e.g., >1.080), change the sqrt 5 to a 4 instead, and sqrt 2 to 1.5.
At low gravity (e.g., 1.035-1.040), change the 5 to a 6, and the 2 to 2.5.

Try it out, maybe you'll like it.  My intent here was not so much a new IBU formula, so much as it is an alternative memorizable reference of how one might calculate IBUs on the fly using a few taps on a calculator.  Cheers.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 06:13:15 am by dmtaylor »
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27137
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27137
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

This has more to do with inadequacy of IBU calculators, not with some mysterious hop oils.  A chemical reaction isn't prevented or doesn't stop just because the temperature is reduced a little. Isomerization continues at a slower rate. I can send you my IBU equation that includes whirlpool hop additions, stand by...

EDIT:  On second thought... the isomerization rate at your very low whirlpool temperature of ~130 F becomes tiny and negligible, so maybe there really is something else entirely going on at that low temperature.  But I think we can still both be correct...

FWIW, my formula is based on empirical utilization data (from Palmer), emulation of Tinseth, and my assertion that you'll get about half the IBUs at approximately 170 F compared to what you would get during the boil.
 So, here it is.

     IBU = oz * AA% * [sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V + sqrt(2*HStime)/V]

Calculate for each different hop addition, then take the sum.  V is volume in gallons.  Boiltime and HStime (Hop Stand time) need to be entered in minutes of course.

Regarding gravity effects:

This works best for worts of "normal" specific gravity of about 1.050-1.060, and warm temperatures >160 F -ish.
At higher gravity (e.g., >1.080), change the sqrt 5 to a 4 instead, and sqrt 2 to 1.5.
At low gravity (e.g., 1.035-1.040), change the 5 to a 6, and the 2 to 2.5.

Try it out, maybe you'll like it.  My intent here was not so much a new IBU formula, so much as it is an alternative memorizable reference of how one might calculate IBUs on the fly using a few taps on a calculator.  Cheers.

You need to look into mIBU calculations.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Silver_Is_Money

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
    • Mash Made Easy, MashRite, LLC
IBU Reduction Factor for Whirlpooling at Degrees F.

212 F: Factor = 1.0000
210 F: Factor = 0.9248
205 F: Factor = 0.7591
200 F: Factor = 0.6210
195 F: Factor = 0.5066
190 F: Factor = 0.4120
185 F: Factor = 0.3339
180 F: Factor = 0.2698
175 F: Factor = 0.2172
170 F: Factor = 0.1743
165 F: Factor = 0.1394
160 F: Factor = 0.0881
155 F: Factor = 0.0697

If a given hop weight at a given AA's when boiled at 212 degrees F. for 20 minutes yields 30 IBU's, then for 20 minutes of whirlpooling at 170 degrees the same weight of the same hop should give you 0.1743 x 30 ~= 5.23 additional IBU's via whirlpooling.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 11:03:25 am by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 27137
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline fredthecat

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

im no expert on tannins or oak, etc.

but i was listening to an MBAA pdocast on oak with some oak barrel experts. they stated that french oak has an average of 10% tannins, american oak an average of 2%. then a minute later they said "american oak has a much harsher effect".

i dont directly connect tannin = harsh, but i thought it was so to a degree, or bitterness/astringency, etc

it confused me.

Offline erockrph

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7795
  • Chepachet, RI
    • The Hop WHisperer
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.
I still get a similar harshness out of Cryo hops (although not quite at the same intensity) when whirlpooled at 140F. If chlorophyll was a primary contributor, I would expect this character to be greatly diminished when using Cryo hops compared to traditional ones.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline RC

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.
I still get a similar harshness out of Cryo hops (although not quite at the same intensity) when whirlpooled at 140F. If chlorophyll was a primary contributor, I would expect this character to be greatly diminished when using Cryo hops compared to traditional ones.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. All that other "stuff" is in the vegetal part of the hops. Using cryo hops will commensurately scale down the amount of all of this stuff, not just chlorophyll.