Author Topic: Flawed!  (Read 3158 times)

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 05:07:55 pm »
The reality is the Pilsner Uqruell has a detectable amount of diacetyl.  It is part of the flavor profile.

Yes, that’s correct and we overlooked this.
Thanks.
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Offline chinaski

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2021, 05:13:41 pm »
The beer is actually very drinkable. But does not hit the mark for what was intended.
This matters too doesn't it?

In my opinion, your not "screwing the pooch" if you have a batch of good beer on your hands.  If you consider that the most valuable thing from competitions is getting expert feedback, then you are in a good spot - you've got the feedback you needed already.  Drink up!

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2021, 05:16:44 pm »
I seem to run into this when I make lagers in the winter and the basement temps never get above the point to drive it off.  I had a number of them last winter.  I've been brewing with 2124 and also Omega 113 Mexican Lager all spring and summer this year... not one hint of diacetyl.  I would think that Texas in the summer would never allow diacetyl but if it's never warmed up it can happen and some strains are more "the usual suspects" than others.  From now on if I make a lager over the winter I'm going to bring it upstairs or find a warmer spot in my basement.  I truly hate diacetyl. 
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2021, 05:21:34 pm »
Invited a good friend over yesterday. Dave is an accomplished brewer, and he worked for a brewery in Austin, Texas. He has also been awarded many medals in various competitions, so he has a good working knowledge of beer profiles.

Gave him a sample of a pale Pils that we recently brewed. He was ecstatic, saying it needs to be entered in the upcoming Bluebonnet. Clean, crisp, light, yet with good flavor and good hop character. A perfect "lawn mower" beer! But it is not a light beer, i.e., Bud Light, Miller Light, Coors Light.

Next, he was given a sample of a Fest Bier that was recently kegged. His first words were...Flawed! Do not enter this beer!
Dave said it was so easy to pick out the flaw, diacetyl, after having tried the Pils which was perfect according to him.

I tasted the sample again, and after being conscious of what he was talking about, a hint of "buttered popcorn" is evident. The beer is actually very drinkable. But does not hit the mark for what was intended.

Not sure where the error happened, but it looks like I screwed the pooch on this one.
I think it is interesting that Dave says he was able to taste the Diacetyl after having one of your good beers. I agree it can be much easier to discern some beer flavors right after tasting a clean beer. We are told to cleanse our pallet with a saltine, but in this case I think there is benefit to drinking one beer right after another.

I taste my beers before packaging. In my experience, Diacetyl sometimes just happens. When it does and the beer is still in the fermenter you can just leave it on the yeast in the mid-60’s for 7-10 days and it will usually go away.

My problem with Diacetyl is once I notice it, I can’t stop noticing it. It becomes the dominant flavor. It’s expectation bias ;)

Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2021, 05:50:29 pm »
I think it is interesting that Dave says he was able to taste the Diacetyl after having one of your good beers. I agree it can be much easier to discern some beer flavors right after tasting a clean beer. We are told to cleanse our pallet with a saltine, but in this case I think there is benefit to drinking one beer right after another.

I taste my beers before packaging. In my experience, Diacetyl sometimes just happens. When it does and the beer is still in the fermenter you can just leave it on the yeast in the mid-60’s for 7-10 days and it will usually go away.

My problem with Diacetyl is once I notice it, I can’t stop noticing it. It becomes the dominant flavor. It’s expectation bias ;)
You can taste a beer when it's cold and pick up less diacetyl for sure.  Leaving it out at the warmer temps is what I do but I'll bet that I have left it on the basement floor in January and the temps did not get high enough.  I agree on the flavor... once you taste it, you can't untaste it.  :P
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2021, 06:38:21 pm »
Yes! Since it was brought to my attention, that Diacetyl taste is there. But it is very subtle, not really a bad “off” flavor.
It was a shock to me seeing Dave’s immediate reaction. He must have a low threshold for picking this up.

A comment found on another site:
“While not a requirement, a low level of diacteyl adds fullness to the mouthfeel, and complexity to the malt. The real question is, what is the "right" amount? For me this beer is slightly more buttery than I wanted, but I tend to be more sensitive than most.”
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 07:46:37 pm by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline ttash

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2021, 09:46:32 pm »
One of the most valuable lessons I've learned as professional brewer is the importance, and ease, of a diacetyl force test. Every beer,  every fermentation. It might seem like a lot, but it's not, and you can do other things while running the tests. I was amazed at how prevalent it was at terminal gravity, and how quickly it dissipated with a little more time on the yeast. We would test daily until it was undetectable, then crash, harvest yeast and move on. And, to some degree, it happens with nearly every type of yeast, clean American, estery British, Belgians, Weizems, Lagers, you name it.
As a homebrewer I take a more simple approach. I looked at all the data I gathered at commercial breweries and found that it almost never takes more than 5 days to clean up all traces of diacetyl. So at home once the beer is terminal I just give it 5 more days at ferm temp before crashing and removing yeast. Simple and effective.

Offline MDL

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2021, 10:21:46 pm »
Try tasting the fest beer before the pils. Tasting order always surprises me.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 10:59:28 pm by MDL »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2021, 04:52:38 am »
Any thoughts on pressure fermentation and diacetyl?
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2021, 06:20:01 am »
Try tasting the fest beer before the pils. Tasting order always surprises me.

That's a good suggestion.
As I go back and forth on this, trying to pick up the off flavor, it is challenging. The diacetyl might be there, but it is very subtle...at least to my taste buds. And I always thought that it was an easy flavor profile to pick out.

Dave said not to enter this beer in competition. But we just might, in order to get unbiased / blind data from trained and/or certified judges.
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Offline ttash

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2021, 06:36:45 am »
Try tasting the fest beer before the pils. Tasting order always surprises me.

That's a good suggestion.
As I go back and forth on this, trying to pick up the off flavor, it is challenging. The diacetyl might be there, but it is very subtle...at least to my taste buds. And I always thought that it was an easy flavor profile to pick out.

Dave said not to enter this beer in competition. But we just might, in order to get unbiased / blind data from trained and/or certified judges.
I couldn't agree more. A bigger database of sensory evaluation is always better than one person's opinion.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2021, 06:53:36 am »
With diacetyl the question is wether or not the off flavor is objectionable or not. As was mentioned, a small amount of diacetyl is acceptable in some styles (even some lagers). But if the OP's friend is experienced enough to pick it out as an off flavor, it probably is high enough above over favor threshed to be considered a "flaw" -- or, that's my best guess from behind this keyboard without tasting the beer itself. If the OP didn't pick up on it at first or doesn't find the flavor objectionable, it could be they don't have a sensitivity to diacetyl. If that's the case, lucky them!

Offline denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2021, 07:59:38 am »
I seem to run into this when I make lagers in the winter and the basement temps never get above the point to drive it off.  I had a number of them last winter.  I've been brewing with 2124 and also Omega 113 Mexican Lager all spring and summer this year... not one hint of diacetyl.  I would think that Texas in the summer would never allow diacetyl but if it's never warmed up it can happen and some strains are more "the usual suspects" than others.  From now on if I make a lager over the winter I'm going to bring it upstairs or find a warmer spot in my basement.  I truly hate diacetyl.

An alternative to raising temp is to simply leave the beer on the yeast longer.  That's my usual method.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2021, 08:02:07 am »
It can be personal.  Some taste it, some do not.  I personally don't care for any... I do not want to pick it up at all.  My son was home from college one year and I put an amber lager on tap without tasting it.  He had a few glasses of it while we were watching a game or something and then I went to tap a glass of it and I took a sip... Whoa!  D-BOMB.  I said, "Hey, what do you think of this beer?". "Oh, it's nice!  I like it!".  Nope.  I took it out of the draft fridge and set it next to the furnace for a week and occasionally hit the PRV...  I eventually tried it again and it was okay.  That warmer phase needs to happen when the beer is in the fermenter.  Clearly, yeast strain plays a role too. 
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2021, 08:07:44 am »
I seem to run into this when I make lagers in the winter and the basement temps never get above the point to drive it off.  I had a number of them last winter.  I've been brewing with 2124 and also Omega 113 Mexican Lager all spring and summer this year... not one hint of diacetyl.  I would think that Texas in the summer would never allow diacetyl but if it's never warmed up it can happen and some strains are more "the usual suspects" than others.  From now on if I make a lager over the winter I'm going to bring it upstairs or find a warmer spot in my basement.  I truly hate diacetyl.

An alternative to raising temp is to simply leave the beer on the yeast longer.  That's my usual method.

That has been our practice, going back a long time. Diacetyl has not been an issue before. Early on in my brewing, perhaps the early 90's, there were a few beers brewed that had this flavor. And it is relatively easy to pick out...buttered popcorn.

Since then it has not been much of an issue. Now I'm going to be hyper cautious with my brewing in order to avoid this.

In the subject beer which was to a Fest-Bier / Oktoberfest style, I thought it was the Munich malt that contributed to the flavor, being quite malt-forward. It is not "crisp" and "clean", like the Light Pils is that Dave compared it to.

Dave told me his "expectation" for for a very crisp and clean lager. Maybe he should have been given this sample first, before the Pils.

So, with the Village Taphouse post above, what would everyone suggest? It is in the keg, at 33 degrees. Let it sit, see what happens? Warm it up a bit and continue aging? Just drink it and be happy? Or find the nearest toilet for a quick disposal?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 08:12:07 am by TXFlyGuy »
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