Author Topic: Flawed!  (Read 3156 times)

Offline BrewNerd

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 08:32:19 am »
I think there is an important lesson here for all of us....it's difficult, almost to the point of impossible, the objectively evaluate your own beer.  Confirmation bias is powerful, and we also all have our own blind spots in tasting.

As per usual, Denny is right on.

In my much less educated opinion, the beer at the top of the glass will taste the same as the beer at the bottom. If it tastes weird, stop drinking.

Once upon a time I sipped my very first wee heavy and convinced myself that it was supposed to taste like old caramel flavored popcorn. Thinking I was so sophisticated for being able to discern such complex flavors I kept drinking. As a result I never got any taller from that point forward.

Probably had nothing to do with the beer and everything with the fact that I was 35 at the time, still that was massively diacetyl-ly.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2021, 08:51:15 am »
I think there is an important lesson here for all of us....it's difficult, almost to the point of impossible, the objectively evaluate your own beer.  Confirmation bias is powerful, and we also all have our own blind spots in tasting.

As per usual, Denny is right on.

In my much less educated opinion, the beer at the top of the glass will taste the same as the beer at the bottom. If it tastes weird, stop drinking.

Once upon a time I sipped my very first wee heavy and convinced myself that it was supposed to taste like old caramel flavored popcorn. Thinking I was so sophisticated for being able to discern such complex flavors I kept drinking. As a result I never got any taller from that point forward.

Probably had nothing to do with the beer and everything with the fact that I was 35 at the time, still that was massively diacetyl-ly.

Like many people who drank skunked bottles of Heineken, and thought that was the way the beer was supposed to taste. Of course, we all know better!
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2021, 09:13:46 am »
I stopped using Y-7408 (Ballantine's ale pitching yeast) because it produced a flavor that could best be described as nutty.  It is definitely a vicinal dikeytone, but distinctly different than the butter or butterscotch.  No amount of time spent on the cake will reduce it.  It works in some styles like English IPA, but left a lot to be desired in other styles.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2021, 09:18:57 am »
Here are a couple pictures, so you can see what we are talking about...Diamond Lager Yeast used:





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Offline denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2021, 09:35:57 am »
It can be personal.  Some taste it, some do not.  I personally don't care for any... I do not want to pick it up at all.  My son was home from college one year and I put an amber lager on tap without tasting it.  He had a few glasses of it while we were watching a game or something and then I went to tap a glass of it and I took a sip... Whoa!  D-BOMB.  I said, "Hey, what do you think of this beer?". "Oh, it's nice!  I like it!".  Nope.  I took it out of the draft fridge and set it next to the furnace for a week and occasionally hit the PRV...  I eventually tried it again and it was okay.  That warmer phase needs to happen when the beer is in the fermenter.  Clearly, yeast strain plays a role too.

Yep.  Yeast can't clean up diacetyl when there's little to no yeast left. In that situation, krausening can be very effective.
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2021, 09:53:34 am »
It can be personal.  Some taste it, some do not.  I personally don't care for any... I do not want to pick it up at all.  My son was home from college one year and I put an amber lager on tap without tasting it.  He had a few glasses of it while we were watching a game or something and then I went to tap a glass of it and I took a sip... Whoa!  D-BOMB.  I said, "Hey, what do you think of this beer?". "Oh, it's nice!  I like it!".  Nope.  I took it out of the draft fridge and set it next to the furnace for a week and occasionally hit the PRV...  I eventually tried it again and it was okay.  That warmer phase needs to happen when the beer is in the fermenter.  Clearly, yeast strain plays a role too.

Yep.  Yeast can't clean up diacetyl when there's little to no yeast left. In that situation, krausening can be very effective.

So, what is your advice in this situation?
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Offline denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2021, 10:03:19 am »
It can be personal.  Some taste it, some do not.  I personally don't care for any... I do not want to pick it up at all.  My son was home from college one year and I put an amber lager on tap without tasting it.  He had a few glasses of it while we were watching a game or something and then I went to tap a glass of it and I took a sip... Whoa!  D-BOMB.  I said, "Hey, what do you think of this beer?". "Oh, it's nice!  I like it!".  Nope.  I took it out of the draft fridge and set it next to the furnace for a week and occasionally hit the PRV...  I eventually tried it again and it was okay.  That warmer phase needs to happen when the beer is in the fermenter.  Clearly, yeast strain plays a role too.

Yep.  Yeast can't clean up diacetyl when there's little to no yeast left. In that situation, krausening can be very effective.

So, what is your advice in this situation?

I'd say try krausening.  It's worked for me in similar situations.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2021, 10:09:55 am »
It can be personal.  Some taste it, some do not.  I personally don't care for any... I do not want to pick it up at all.  My son was home from college one year and I put an amber lager on tap without tasting it.  He had a few glasses of it while we were watching a game or something and then I went to tap a glass of it and I took a sip... Whoa!  D-BOMB.  I said, "Hey, what do you think of this beer?". "Oh, it's nice!  I like it!".  Nope.  I took it out of the draft fridge and set it next to the furnace for a week and occasionally hit the PRV...  I eventually tried it again and it was okay.  That warmer phase needs to happen when the beer is in the fermenter.  Clearly, yeast strain plays a role too.

Yep.  Yeast can't clean up diacetyl when there's little to no yeast left. In that situation, krausening can be very effective.

So, what is your advice in this situation?

I'd say try krausening.  It's worked for me in similar situations.

I will give it a try. Thanks!
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2021, 08:23:29 am »
I took your well intended advice!
Pulled the keg out of the freezer (32 F), added some hyper fresh Diamond Lager yeast, and it is sitting at room temp now. No choice, as all of my freezers and beer dispensers are full!
Hope the Diamond Lager does well at room temp.
If not, down the toilet it goes.
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Offline denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2021, 08:34:35 am »
I took your well intended advice!
Pulled the keg out of the freezer (32 F), added some hyper fresh Diamond Lager yeast, and it is sitting at room temp now. No choice, as all of my freezers and beer dispensers are full!
Hope the Diamond Lager does well at room temp.
If not, down the toilet it goes.

That's not krausening. You neede to add actively fermenting wort, not just yeast.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2021, 08:46:30 am »
I took your well intended advice!
Pulled the keg out of the freezer (32 F), added some hyper fresh Diamond Lager yeast, and it is sitting at room temp now. No choice, as all of my freezers and beer dispensers are full!
Hope the Diamond Lager does well at room temp.
If not, down the toilet it goes.

That's not krausening. You neede to add actively fermenting wort, not just yeast.

It was very active yeast, with some fermented wort. Harvested yesterday from another brew. It took off right away after being introduced into the diacetyl laced beer.
If it does not work, no big deal. So far, it looks promising!
Winning Gold Medals isn't everything, but it sure is fun!

Offline denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2021, 09:14:44 am »
I took your well intended advice!
Pulled the keg out of the freezer (32 F), added some hyper fresh Diamond Lager yeast, and it is sitting at room temp now. No choice, as all of my freezers and beer dispensers are full!
Hope the Diamond Lager does well at room temp.
If not, down the toilet it goes.

That's not krausening. You neede to add actively fermenting wort, not just yeast.

It was very active yeast, with some fermented wort. Harvested yesterday from another brew. It took off right away after being introduced into the diacetyl laced beer.
If it does not work, no big deal. So far, it looks promising!

Ah, that's different then.  Good luck!  Hope it works for ya.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2021, 04:50:13 pm »
After 4 days at room temp and doing the krausening, the keg is again crashed to 32 degrees. My taste test tells me that the diacetyl problem is gone. But my friend (the one who told me the beer was flawed!) will be invited over to do a blind taste test.

Then I will know for sure.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2021, 09:53:37 pm »
So you started with a beer that you said was quite drinkable, but after somebody told you it was flawed you decided that you needed to fix it or you would flush it down the toilet. Now you think that it is fixed and tastes fine. If your expert tells you it is still flawed, will you flush it? That would be a terrible waste of beer that you called quite drinkable in the first place. Did your expert tell you to flush it or only that it shouldn't be entered into a competition? There are plenty of fine beers that don't meet style guidelines. They shouldn't be entered into competitions, but they should be consumed and enjoyed. I would never flush a beer just because someone else told me it didn't meet their expectations.
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Offline Slowbrew

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2021, 05:39:35 am »
So you started with a beer that you said was quite drinkable, but after somebody told you it was flawed you decided that you needed to fix it or you would flush it down the toilet. Now you think that it is fixed and tastes fine. If your expert tells you it is still flawed, will you flush it? That would be a terrible waste of beer that you called quite drinkable in the first place. Did your expert tell you to flush it or only that it shouldn't be entered into a competition? There are plenty of fine beers that don't meet style guidelines. They shouldn't be entered into competitions, but they should be consumed and enjoyed. I would never flush a beer just because someone else told me it didn't meet their expectations.

Devil's advocate here: Flyguy seems dedicated to really perfecting he and his friends processes.  In my mind that is not a character flaw.  Whether to drink or pitch is his choice.  If he's got better beer in the pipeline and has the budget to throw a beer away because of small flaw he is free to do so. 

I have done both options, drunk a really poor beer because my supply was low and dumped a slight stinker because I had 4 or 5 better beers in line behind it.  Everyone gets to make their own choices.

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