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Author Topic: Flawed!  (Read 3295 times)

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2021, 06:35:26 am »
I did not perceive the diacetyl until it was pointed out to me. Initially, that flavor character was thought to be extra "maltiness" from the 33% Munich malt.
After hearing the term "buttered popcorn", that taste was etched into my brain, and would not go away.

My friend, home brewer and multiple award winner, plus former employee of a craft brewery in Austin, Texas, picked the flavor out immediately.
I appreciate his honesty...and my beer is better because of his input.

Yes, we were fully prepared to dump it...maybe in the garden.
 
The beer is better now, in my small and very subjective taste tests. But Dave will come over in a day or two for a blind sampling of several beers. Anxious to see if he can pick this one out.

edit: I have tasted what was thought to be diacetyl in years past, but this was not it. Buttered Popcorn is the best description.
        Dave did not say the beer was "bad", only that it was flawed, and not to enter it in competition. But to me, flawed = bad.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 06:44:32 am by TXFlyGuy »
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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2021, 06:56:26 am »
For what it is worth, sometimes diacetyl ages out as a beer is cellared and sometimes it appears with aging, so it can just happen.  Usually a large, healthy pitch precludes the issue, but evidently, not always.  I have a neighbor who is highly sensitive to diacetyl and picked it up on a beer that I did not notice it on.  I just left that beer alone for a couple weeks and it resolved the issue.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2021, 08:49:35 am »
...
Dave did not say the beer was "bad", only that it was flawed, and not to enter it in competition. But to me, flawed = bad.
...

To a BJCP judge, flawed = "does not fit the prescribed parameters of the style". That does not mean the beer is "bad". That is one of the main complaints that people have about the style guidelines. They are a necessary evil to allow the comparison of widely-varying types of beers in a competition, but they are often misunderstood.
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Online denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2021, 10:37:25 am »
I did not perceive the diacetyl until it was pointed out to me. Initially, that flavor character was thought to be extra "maltiness" from the 33% Munich malt.
After hearing the term "buttered popcorn", that taste was etched into my brain, and would not go away.

My friend, home brewer and multiple award winner, plus former employee of a craft brewery in Austin, Texas, picked the flavor out immediately.
I appreciate his honesty...and my beer is better because of his input.

Yes, we were fully prepared to dump it...maybe in the garden.
 
The beer is better now, in my small and very subjective taste tests. But Dave will come over in a day or two for a blind sampling of several beers. Anxious to see if he can pick this one out.

edit: I have tasted what was thought to be diacetyl in years past, but this was not it. Buttered Popcorn is the best description.
        Dave did not say the beer was "bad", only that it was flawed, and not to enter it in competition. But to me, flawed = bad.

Please don't take this wrong....no offense intended.  But if you mistake diacetyl for maltiness, you might want to consider some palate training.
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2021, 11:38:40 am »
I did not perceive the diacetyl until it was pointed out to me. Initially, that flavor character was thought to be extra "maltiness" from the 33% Munich malt.
After hearing the term "buttered popcorn", that taste was etched into my brain, and would not go away.

My friend, home brewer and multiple award winner, plus former employee of a craft brewery in Austin, Texas, picked the flavor out immediately.
I appreciate his honesty...and my beer is better because of his input.

Yes, we were fully prepared to dump it...maybe in the garden.
 
The beer is better now, in my small and very subjective taste tests. But Dave will come over in a day or two for a blind sampling of several beers. Anxious to see if he can pick this one out.

edit: I have tasted what was thought to be diacetyl in years past, but this was not it. Buttered Popcorn is the best description.
        Dave did not say the beer was "bad", only that it was flawed, and not to enter it in competition. But to me, flawed = bad.

Please don't take this wrong....no offense intended.  But if you mistake diacetyl for maltiness, you might want to consider some palate training.

That is good advice. A course on "Beer Flaws - How To Taste & Detect Them" would be of interest.

I have brewed diacetyl beers before, many years ago. But This particular example did not taste anything like what was previously brewed. So much so that I was questioning Dave's taste perception.

But...when I would taste a sample, close my eyes, and think "Buttered Popcorn", it was there. Power of suggestion?
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Online denny

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2021, 11:47:56 am »
I did not perceive the diacetyl until it was pointed out to me. Initially, that flavor character was thought to be extra "maltiness" from the 33% Munich malt.
After hearing the term "buttered popcorn", that taste was etched into my brain, and would not go away.

My friend, home brewer and multiple award winner, plus former employee of a craft brewery in Austin, Texas, picked the flavor out immediately.
I appreciate his honesty...and my beer is better because of his input.

Yes, we were fully prepared to dump it...maybe in the garden.
 
The beer is better now, in my small and very subjective taste tests. But Dave will come over in a day or two for a blind sampling of several beers. Anxious to see if he can pick this one out.

edit: I have tasted what was thought to be diacetyl in years past, but this was not it. Buttered Popcorn is the best description.
        Dave did not say the beer was "bad", only that it was flawed, and not to enter it in competition. But to me, flawed = bad.

Please don't take this wrong....no offense intended.  But if you mistake diacetyl for maltiness, you might want to consider some palate training.

That is good advice. A course on "Beer Flaws - How To Taste & Detect Them" would be of interest.

I have brewed diacetyl beers before, many years ago. But This particular example did not taste anything like what was previously brewed. So much so that I was questioning Dave's taste perception.

But...when I would taste a sample, close my eyes, and think "Buttered Popcorn", it was there. Power of suggestion?

That's entirely possible.  In my seminars I talk a lot about confirmation bias.  It's also why I think it's very difficult to judge your own beers, or objectively evaluate them once you get an idea in your head. I don't know the friend who told you it was diacetyl, but he could be wrong.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2021, 12:39:04 pm »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2021, 03:45:22 pm »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.


i have a very high diacetyl threshold. i havent done any serious BJCP test-aids style stuff to confirm this, but I honestly can't think of a beer I've had where I've said butter, I know I have reviewed beer and said this before, but it's been a long time and I can't remember a homebrew I made where I noticed that as a feature.

It may be how I ferment or the yeasts I've used, but I believe this is the case for me. It may be for you too.

You know what, to get a confirmation you should submit the beer as is and see if they give the same notes as your friend. A low score isn't going to hurt you knowing that you sent it in simply to get confirmation of the problem.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 08:52:30 pm by fredthecat »

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2021, 04:05:51 pm »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.


i have a very high diacetyl threshold before i notice it. i havent done any serious BJCP test-aids style stuff to confirm this, but I honestly can't think of a beer I've had where I've said butter, I know I have reviewed beer and said this before, but it's been a long time and I can't remember a homebrew I made where I noticed that as a feature.

It may be how I ferment or the yeasts I've used, but I believe this is the case for me. It may be for you too.

You know what, to get a confirmation you should submit the beer as is and see if they give the same notes as your friend. A low score isn't going to hurt you knowing that you sent it in simply to get confirmation of the problem.

Very good idea. Might just do that, and see what happens.
Thanks!
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2021, 06:57:47 am »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.


i have a very high diacetyl threshold. i havent done any serious BJCP test-aids style stuff to confirm this, but I honestly can't think of a beer I've had where I've said butter, I know I have reviewed beer and said this before, but it's been a long time and I can't remember a homebrew I made where I noticed that as a feature.

It may be how I ferment or the yeasts I've used, but I believe this is the case for me. It may be for you too.

You know what, to get a confirmation you should submit the beer as is and see if they give the same notes as your friend. A low score isn't going to hurt you knowing that you sent it in simply to get confirmation of the problem.
I am fairly sensitive to diacetyl, and pick it up in many commercial beers,, but I can't say that I've noticed it more than once or twice in my own beers. I've always assumed that the main reasons are that I always give my beers longer in primary because I'm too lazy to take an FG reading, and possibly because I typically pitch enough yeast for a 5 gallon batch into 3 gallons of wort. In comparison, pros are trying to turn over tanks more quickly and many just don't have the greatest yeast management practices (based on what I can taste).

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Offline ttash

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2021, 07:39:22 am »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.


i have a very high diacetyl threshold before i notice it. i havent done any serious BJCP test-aids style stuff to confirm this, but I honestly can't think of a beer I've had where I've said butter, I know I have reviewed beer and said this before, but it's been a long time and I can't remember a homebrew I made where I noticed that as a feature.

It may be how I ferment or the yeasts I've used, but I believe this is the case for me. It may be for you too.

You know what, to get a confirmation you should submit the beer as is and see if they give the same notes as your friend. A low score isn't going to hurt you knowing that you sent it in simply to get confirmation of the problem.

Very good idea. Might just do that, and see what happens.
Thanks!
As I suggested earlier in this thread, submit this to a competition where it will be evaluated by a panel of trained judges and see what their consensus is.

I know that you respect your friend's opinion, but that's all it is, his opinion. And it's just one opinion. Does he have a  BJCP ranking? Just because someone works at a commercial brewery doesn't automatically qualify them as an expert in sensory evaluation. One has to have sensory training, constant calibration and ongoing practice.

Confirmation bias and power of suggestion are very real things, and can affect the opinion of even trained judges. In my experience with several commercial breweries, during our sensory training and ongoing evaluations we were forbidden from making any comments or even any overt facial expressions during the evaluation process. Once all panelists were done with their evaluations, we would then and only then discuss our opinions. Otherwise the results would be skewed by the suggestions of others.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2021, 08:27:18 am »
Just now tried a sample. Tastes pretty good. The flawed flavor that was there before (whatever it was) is not detectable by me at this time.

It seems that the addition of fresh yeast and wort to this keg did the trick. I will know more after Dave does the blind taste test!

The one major thing now...the beer is super cloudy. It's what we refer to in aviation as zero-zero. No forward visibility, and no vertical visibility. Gelatin was added, but so far no help.


i have a very high diacetyl threshold before i notice it. i havent done any serious BJCP test-aids style stuff to confirm this, but I honestly can't think of a beer I've had where I've said butter, I know I have reviewed beer and said this before, but it's been a long time and I can't remember a homebrew I made where I noticed that as a feature.

It may be how I ferment or the yeasts I've used, but I believe this is the case for me. It may be for you too.

You know what, to get a confirmation you should submit the beer as is and see if they give the same notes as your friend. A low score isn't going to hurt you knowing that you sent it in simply to get confirmation of the problem.

Very good idea. Might just do that, and see what happens.
Thanks!
As I suggested earlier in this thread, submit this to a competition where it will be evaluated by a panel of trained judges and see what their consensus is.

I know that you respect your friend's opinion, but that's all it is, his opinion. And it's just one opinion. Does he have a  BJCP ranking? Just because someone works at a commercial brewery doesn't automatically qualify them as an expert in sensory evaluation. One has to have sensory training, constant calibration and ongoing practice.

Confirmation bias and power of suggestion are very real things, and can affect the opinion of even trained judges. In my experience with several commercial breweries, during our sensory training and ongoing evaluations we were forbidden from making any comments or even any overt facial expressions during the evaluation process. Once all panelists were done with their evaluations, we would then and only then discuss our opinions. Otherwise the results would be skewed by the suggestions of others.

Yes, this certainly makes sense.
Tried another small sample this morning. Surprisingly, the beer is tasting much better. My palate senses a near perfect balance between malt, bitterness, hops, and residual sweetness. Extremely slow to clear, however. It will be entered this January.

There was a brewery / restaurant in the Dallas area, Humperdinks, but COVID put them out of business. Their beers were good enough, and they won some awards at the GABF.

But I detected a very obvious "house flavor", where each of their beers tasted similar. There was a single brewer there, and he ran the entire operation. Just wondering how many of us home brewer types suffer from this...house flavor?
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Offline mchrispen

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2021, 12:43:46 pm »
TX... A mate and I do most if the BJCP planning and training in the Austin area. If you want more opinions, feel free to reach out.

Neil and I both are lager heads.

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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2021, 04:59:08 pm »
TX... A mate and I do most if the BJCP planning and training in the Austin area. If you want more opinions, feel free to reach out.

Neil and I both are lager heads.

mchrispen (a) Gmail.com

Thanks! I will do that.
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Offline purduekenn

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Re: Flawed!
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2021, 07:09:24 pm »
I am not real sensitive to diacetyl and don't get the popcorn butter taste. I get a really slick sensation on the back of my mouth and around my teeth from diacetyl.