Author Topic: Vienna Lager Grain  (Read 1653 times)

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Vienna Lager Grain
« on: October 03, 2021, 05:28:38 pm »
Getting set to brew 10 gallons of Vienna Lager tomorrow.
Here is the grain:
12 lbs Ireks Light Munich
4 lbs Ireks Vienna
3 lbs Weyermann Carared

Thoughts? My previous attempt was all Vienna with a little carared.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 05:58:29 am by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2021, 05:33:52 pm »
if you are making a copy of what people imagine negra modelo to be then sure.


when i think of vienna lager, as ive stated before (i think there was an entire many, many page thread on this already wasnt there?) i think of ottakringer vienna.

if i made that i would go 98% vienna, 2% carafa. noble hops to ~32 IBU.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2021, 05:50:54 pm »
if you are making a copy of what people imagine negra modelo to be then sure.


when i think of vienna lager, as ive stated before (i think there was an entire many, many page thread on this already wasnt there?) i think of ottakringer vienna.

if i made that i would go 98% vienna, 2% carafa. noble hops to ~32 IBU.

Did not want to buy more grain, so went with what we have. Had a hard time getting the correct SRM without going too high on the OG.
According to Brewer’s Friend, this should get in the ballpark. At 85% efficiency.

Tettnang hops.

I was not looking to specifically replicate a Negra Modelo. But all of the info found online says this is a Vienna Lager.

This, taken from a BJCP training class:

3A. Vienna Lager

Please get your sample of 3A. Vienna Lager (Negra Modelo) and evaluate it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 08:00:01 pm by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2021, 08:03:10 pm »
Negra modelo uses corn if I’m not mistaken. Too much crystal malt for my taste and Vienna lager seems to showcase Vienna malt more but I bet it will be tasty. Seems closer to an American style marzen to me.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 08:19:56 pm by Iliff Ave »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2021, 09:03:08 pm »
Negra modelo uses corn if I’m not mistaken. Too much crystal malt for my taste and Vienna lager seems to showcase Vienna malt more but I bet it will be tasty. Seems closer to an American style marzen to me.
Yeah, to me a Vienna leads with Vienna malt. A bit of light Munich or a light Cara malt is fine for depth of flavor, but this grain bill looks more like a Bock to me.
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2021, 04:50:10 am »
Thanks for the input. My last Vienna was all Vienna malt, with 10% Carared. It is Ok. I am attempting something closer to the style guidelines, but not targeting Negra Modelo as a goal.

The plan was to enter this in a competition.

This will not have the ABV to put it into Bock territory. The Munich is Ireks Light Munich.

Here is what the recipe builder says…

Matches styles based on stats only:
Oktoberfest/Märzen, Irish Red Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Saison, Belgian Specialty Ale, Fruit Beer, Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer, Other Smoked Beer, Specialty Beer, Vienna Lager, Kellerbier: Amber Kellerbier, Belgian Pale Ale, Saison
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 06:02:16 am by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2021, 06:13:41 am »
Thanks for the input. My last Vienna was all Vienna malt, with 10% Carared. It is Ok. I am attempting something closer to the style guidelines, but not targeting Negra Modelo as a goal.

The plan was to enter this in a competition.

This will not have the ABV to put it into Bock territory.
It looks like you're trying to brew to the color of the style guidelines, rather than the flavor. Beyond that, it also looks like you're using crystal malt to hit your color target, which is almost universally a bad idea. Generally, you want to dial in your flavor first, and then use something like Carafa/Sinamar/Midnight Wheat/etc., if you need feel the need to boost the SRM a bit. "Vienna Lager" is not what comes to mind when I see this recipe.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2021, 06:47:17 am »
Thanks for the input. My last Vienna was all Vienna malt, with 10% Carared. It is Ok. I am attempting something closer to the style guidelines, but not targeting Negra Modelo as a goal.

The plan was to enter this in a competition.

This will not have the ABV to put it into Bock territory. The Munich is Ireks Light Munich.

Here is what the recipe builder says…

Matches styles based on stats only:
Oktoberfest/Märzen, Irish Red Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Saison, Belgian Specialty Ale, Fruit Beer, Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer, Other Smoked Beer, Specialty Beer, Vienna Lager, Kellerbier: Amber Kellerbier, Belgian Pale Ale, Saison


i can match the style of a dubbel through "stats" with 13% crystal 40, 80% 2row and 7% dextrose, 1oz cascade at 60 and 1oz cascade at flameout. boom i just hit within the IBU, SRM and OG/FG in brewtarget. thats a "Belgian Dubbel"

Offline jverduin

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2021, 06:56:29 am »
Getting set to brew 10 gallons of Vienna Lager tomorrow.
Here is the grain:
12 lbs Ireks Light Munich
4 lbs Ireks Vienna
3 lbs Weyermann Carared

Thoughts? My previous attempt was all Vienna with a little carared.
In prepping for a competition, I had tried a few variations on my approach to the grain bill. In the final version, I settled on a decision to omit any crystal malts. I used a large portion of 60-20-20 Vienna, Munich, and Pils. I added 2 ozs of Carafa Special II to get the beer to a color of 10 (recipe calculated 10, but it looked a bit higher to me).

I find that, for my taste, my Amber and darker lagers taste cleaner to me without the crystal malts. I’ve dropped them or really restrained them (1/2 pound caramunich in a doppelbock) and have enjoyed the results.


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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2021, 07:03:37 am »
Ok…and thanks again for the input. Yes, the SRM was of concern, as was the ABV.
It is experimental in nature, so if it does not hit my target, no big deal.
So far, it looks good. Nice color, about a 9.5 or 10, and very clear.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 07:06:11 am by TXFlyGuy »
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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2021, 03:07:34 pm »
We have no idea about taste, but we hit our OG target, and the SRM target.
Little benefit that has if the flavor is not good!
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2021, 03:13:42 pm »
I just brewed a 3-galllon batch Vienna with a grist composed of 96% Vienna Malt and 6% CaraRed.  This beer completely blows my brewed to the BJCP standard attempts at Vienna away. There is no comparison.  It is smooth and toasty with a nice reddish, amber tint.  The beer was bittered to 31 IBUs (Tinseth) using three equal additions of Mt. Hood at 45, 30, and 15.  I used a spider so the actual IBUs are definitely under 31 IBUs.  My guess would be 28 or less.  Diamond Lager worked very well in this batch.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2021, 03:32:16 pm »
I just brewed a 3-galllon batch Vienna with a grist composed of 96% Vienna Malt and 6% CaraRed.  This beer completely blows my brewed to the BJCP standard attempts at Vienna away. There is no comparison.  It is smooth and toasty with a nice reddish, amber tint.  The beer was bittered to 31 IBUs (Tinseth) using three equal additions of Mt. Hood at 45, 30, and 15.  I used a spider so the actual IBUs are definitely under 31 IBUs.  My guess would be 28 or less.  Diamond Lager worked very well in this batch.

My previous attempt was like yours, but 90 / 10. With W-34/70 yeast. This time we are using our new go to lager yeast, Diamond.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2021, 03:39:54 pm »
I just brewed a 3-galllon batch Vienna with a grist composed of 96% Vienna Malt and 6% CaraRed.  This beer completely blows my brewed to the BJCP standard attempts at Vienna away. There is no comparison.  It is smooth and toasty with a nice reddish, amber tint.  The beer was bittered to 31 IBUs (Tinseth) using three equal additions of Mt. Hood at 45, 30, and 15.  I used a spider so the actual IBUs are definitely under 31 IBUs.  My guess would be 28 or less.  Diamond Lager worked very well in this batch.
Which Vienna malt did you use? I am considering brewing one with Mecca Grade Vanora, but I wasn't going to go as high as 90% with it. I have never brewed a Vienna Lager before, although I have tasted many.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2021, 04:59:52 pm »
Which Vienna malt did you use? I am considering brewing one with Mecca Grade Vanora, but I wasn't going to go as high as 90% with it. I have never brewed a Vienna Lager before, although I have tasted many.

I used Weyermann Vienna malt.  Weyermann is becoming my favorite maltster for continental malts other than pils.  I have stuck with Avangard pils because I have gotten a consistent year-to-year extraction rate.  It has a good taste and it is cheaper than most other continental pils malt offerings.  Personally, I know that some of the craft maltsters produce good malt, but I personally avoid using domestic malt in continental lager.  It does not taste the same and continental lager is all about the malt.

I have brewed Vienna using various amounts of pils, munich, crystal/caramel, and colored malt in the past, but most have been underwhelming.  I think that near 100% Vienna is the way to go.  As far as to crystal malt, I have found over the years that 5 to 6% is the Goldilocks zone where it adds color and body without adding to much caramel flavor.  I even use 6% CaraHell in Bo Pils. Vienna malt is kilned roughly to the same color as pale ale malt.  It just has a different flavor.  Anton Dreher copied the way that the British made pale ale malt in smokeless kilns.