Author Topic: Vienna Lager Grain  (Read 1658 times)

Online Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2021, 05:16:22 pm »
In our Vienna Lagers, we have always used Ireks.
The only other brand we use is Weyermann, and their floor malted Bohemian Pilsner malt is good stuff. Well suited for multiple step mashes.
Ireks has proven to be consistent in quality, and is usually less expensive.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2021, 05:27:03 pm »
Malt availability is definitely a regional thing.  I purchase my malt from the oldest and largest home brewing supply store in my area.  They have a good selection of malt and will special order any malt, but they do not carry Ireks, so there will be not cost savings.  Their main continental pils malt is Avangard followed by Weyermann.

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2021, 07:22:38 pm »
Which Vienna malt did you use? I am considering brewing one with Mecca Grade Vanora, but I wasn't going to go as high as 90% with it. I have never brewed a Vienna Lager before, although I have tasted many.

I used Weyermann Vienna malt.  Weyermann is becoming my favorite maltster for continental malts other than pils.  I have stuck with Avangard pils because I have gotten a consistent year-to-year extraction rate.  It has a good taste and it is cheaper than most other continental pils malt offerings.  Personally, I know that some of the craft maltsters produce good malt, but I personally avoid using domestic malt in continental lager.  It does not taste the same and continental lager is all about the malt.

I have brewed Vienna using various amounts of pils, munich, crystal/caramel, and colored malt in the past, but most have been underwhelming.  I think that near 100% Vienna is the way to go.  As far as to crystal malt, I have found over the years that 5 to 6% is the Goldilocks zone where it adds color and body without adding to much caramel flavor.  I even use 6% CaraHell in Bo Pils. Vienna malt is kilned roughly to the same color as pale ale malt.  It just has a different flavor.  Anton Dreher copied the way that the British made pale ale malt in smokeless kilns.

the guy who wrote a book about anton dreher and is austrian really fleshed out his interesting story, and yes, overall he was using british/scottish 1800s brewing as his model to copy from. its a pretty cool story that could easily be a made-for-tv tier 60 minute movie.

vienna does have a distinctive taste, im hoping to analyze it more this year. ive got a dubbel fermenting now that's malt is about 95% vienna malt, 5% specialty ones


Online Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2021, 08:02:01 pm »
From a purely technical and style guideline point of view, is Negra Modelo a Vienna Lager?
I have consumed a fair amount of this brew, but not in many years.
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Online BrewBama

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Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2021, 09:17:22 pm »
From a purely technical and style guideline point of view, is Negra Modelo a Vienna Lager?
I have consumed a fair amount of this brew, but not in many years.

Modelo Negra is brewed to be a Dunkel:

“Brewed longer to enhance the flavors, this Munich Dunkel-style Lager gives way to a rich flavor and remarkably smooth taste. Modelo Negra contains Water, Barley Malt, Non-malted Cereals and Hops.”

I doubt they give two rips what the HomeBrew guide says.

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« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 09:28:48 pm by BrewBama »

Offline erockrph

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2021, 09:43:17 pm »
From a purely technical and style guideline point of view, is Negra Modelo a Vienna Lager?
I have consumed a fair amount of this brew, but not in many years.

Modelo Negra is brewed to be a Dunkel:

“Brewed longer to enhance the flavors, this Munich Dunkel-style Lager gives way to a rich flavor and remarkably smooth taste. Modelo Negra contains Water, Barley Malt, Non-malted Cereals and Hops.”

I doubt they give two rips what the HomeBrew guide says.

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They may call it that, and it may look like one, but it is most certainly not a Dunkel. It may taste closer to a Vienna, but I have a hard time even calling it that. Don't get me wrong, I drink and enjoy my fair share of Negra Modelo, but it definitely tastes more like an adjunct lager than a continental one.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2021, 10:17:44 pm »
From a purely technical and style guideline point of view, is Negra Modelo a Vienna Lager?
I have consumed a fair amount of this brew, but not in many years.

Modelo Negra is brewed to be a Dunkel:

“Brewed longer to enhance the flavors, this Munich Dunkel-style Lager gives way to a rich flavor and remarkably smooth taste. Modelo Negra contains Water, Barley Malt, Non-malted Cereals and Hops.”

I doubt they give two rips what the HomeBrew guide says.

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They may call it that, and it may look like one, but it is most certainly not a Dunkel. It may taste closer to a Vienna, but I have a hard time even calling it that. Don't get me wrong, I drink and enjoy my fair share of Negra Modelo, but it definitely tastes more like an adjunct lager than a continental one.

yup, ive never been a fan, its one of the most inexplicable things about americans and this beer. i tried the pale modelo whatever its called by the same company and its even worse.

its been years, but if i wanted to clone negra modelo i would do 1lb crystal 40 for direct sweetness and colour, black caramel colouring to make it that reddy colour and stick that on a NAIL. make sure its left in the bottle for at least 6 months for that papery, cardboardy taste. perfect clone.

Online Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 05:43:50 am »
Are Vienna Lagers produced in Europe? Is there a good example available in the US, nationally?

The traditional Vienna Lager recipe consists of only Vienna malt, and displays more toffee, bready flavors. Vienna Lager recipes today are likely to contain Munich malt, Pilsner malt, Vienna malt, and dextrin malt, and in certain situations, some brewers call for wheat in their Vienna Lager. Aside from malt, the Vienna Lager hops are German Noble hops and the Vienna Lager yeast is of course bottom fermenting Lager yeast. The Noble hops are used subtly and offer low hop bitterness.

https://craftbeerclub.com/beer-style/vienna-lager


« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 05:50:17 am by TXFlyGuy »
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Online BrewBama

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2021, 05:50:17 am »
... i tried the pale modelo whatever its called by the same company and its even worse.



Especial. It’s their version of a Pils-style.

While I certainly understand the want and desire of beer enthusiasts for commercial brewers to meet their expectations, I imagine they’ll continue to brew their interpretation of the various styles for their target markets.

Wether it is Sam Adams, SN Märzen-Oktoberfest, Shiner Bock, or Modelo, the option to vote with your wallet still exists.



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Online Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2021, 06:19:30 am »
... i tried the pale modelo whatever its called by the same company and its even worse.



Especial. It’s their version of a Pils-style.

While I certainly understand the want and desire of beer enthusiasts for commercial brewers to meet their expectations, I imagine they’ll continue to brew their interpretation of the various styles for their target markets.

Wether it is Sam Adams, SN Märzen-Oktoberfest, Shiner Bock, or Modelo, the option to vote with your wallet still exists.

Exactly. And you will not find any of the beers listed here in my house.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2021, 07:49:35 am »
Are Vienna Lagers produced in Europe? Is there a good example available in the US, nationally?

The traditional Vienna Lager recipe consists of only Vienna malt, and displays more toffee, bready flavors. Vienna Lager recipes today are likely to contain Munich malt, Pilsner malt, Vienna malt, and dextrin malt, and in certain situations, some brewers call for wheat in their Vienna Lager. Aside from malt, the Vienna Lager hops are German Noble hops and the Vienna Lager yeast is of course bottom fermenting Lager yeast. The Noble hops are used subtly and offer low hop bitterness.

https://craftbeerclub.com/beer-style/vienna-lager

im not trying to say im an expert on viennas, but that is just some stuff that someone wrote about a style that isnt well known and doesnt have a single or group of style leaders well known for people to taste. toffee flavours? from what? thats not what comes to mind either when i think of it. and i wouldnt say low bitterness.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 08:39:03 am »
For what it is worth, Weyermann now sells a Vienna Barke malt that is very flavorful.  I try to avoid any crystals in most every lager style, but a light hand is permissible.  Actually, the BJCP Style Guideline for 2015 (Comments and Style Comparison sections) capture the essence of the style:

"Comments
A standard-strength everyday beer, not a beer brewed for festivals. American versions can be a bit stronger, drier and more bitter, while modern European versions tend to be sweeter. Many Mexican amber and dark lagers used to be more authentic, but unfortunately are now more like sweet, adjunct-laden Amber/Dark International Lagers. Regrettably, many modern examples use adjuncts which lessen the rich malt complexity characteristic of the best examples of this style. This style is on the watch list to move to the Historical category in future guidelines; that would allow the classic style to be described while moving the sweeter modern versions to the International Amber or Dark Lager styles.

History
Developed by Anton Dreher in Vienna in 1841, became popular in the mid-late 1800s. Now nearly extinct in its area of origin, the style continues in Mexico where it was brought by Santiago Graf and other Austrian immigrant brewers in the late 1800s. Authentic examples are increasingly hard to find (except perhaps in the craft beer industry) as formerly good examples become sweeter and use more adjuncts.

Characteristic Ingredients
Vienna malt provides a lightly toasty and complex, Maillard-rich malt profile. As with Märzens, only the finest quality malt should be used, along with Continental hops (preferably Saazer types or Styrians). Can use some caramel malts and/or darker malts to add color and sweetness, but caramel malts shouldn’t add significant aroma and flavor and dark malts shouldn’t provide any roasted character.

Style Comparison
Lighter malt character, slightly less body, and slightly more bitter in the balance than a Märzen, yet with many of the same malt-derived flavors. The malt character is similar to a Märzen, but less intense and more balanced. Lower in alcohol than Märzen or Festbier. Less rich, less malty and less hop-centered compared to Czech Amber Lager.

Vital Statistics
IBU
18 - 30

SRM
9 - 15

OG
1.048 - 1.055

FG
1.010 - 1.014

ABV
4.7% - 5.5%

Commercial Examples
Cuauhtémoc Noche Buena, Chuckanut Vienna Lager, Devils Backbone Vienna Lager, Figueroa Mountain Danish-style Red Lager, Heavy Seas Cutlass Amber Lager, Schell’s Firebrick."

I must say IMHO that the Devil's Backbone version is pretty well made and quite drinkable.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 09:02:14 am by ynotbrusum »
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Offline denny

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2021, 08:49:50 am »
Which Vienna malt did you use? I am considering brewing one with Mecca Grade Vanora, but I wasn't going to go as high as 90% with it. I have never brewed a Vienna Lager before, although I have tasted many.

I used Weyermann Vienna malt.  Weyermann is becoming my favorite maltster for continental malts other than pils.  I have stuck with Avangard pils because I have gotten a consistent year-to-year extraction rate.  It has a good taste and it is cheaper than most other continental pils malt offerings.  Personally, I know that some of the craft maltsters produce good malt, but I personally avoid using domestic malt in continental lager.  It does not taste the same and continental lager is all about the malt.

I have brewed Vienna using various amounts of pils, munich, crystal/caramel, and colored malt in the past, but most have been underwhelming.  I think that near 100% Vienna is the way to go.  As far as to crystal malt, I have found over the years that 5 to 6% is the Goldilocks zone where it adds color and body without adding to much caramel flavor.  I even use 6% CaraHell in Bo Pils. Vienna malt is kilned roughly to the same color as pale ale malt.  It just has a different flavor.  Anton Dreher copied the way that the British made pale ale malt in smokeless kilns.

Have you tried Best?  I found that I preferred Best to Weyermann.
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Offline denny

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2021, 08:51:06 am »
From a purely technical and style guideline point of view, is Negra Modelo a Vienna Lager?
I have consumed a fair amount of this brew, but not in many years.

It used to be considered one, but between recipe changes and style shifts, it no longer is.
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Online Bel Air Brewing

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Re: Vienna Lager Grain
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2021, 09:14:55 am »
Just now sent an email to Best. Seeking a retailer close to us.
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