[Bel Air Brewing]

When we toured the Hofbrau Brewery, they said the mash was a step infusion mash. Not decoction.

[fredthecat]

I think the decoction conclusion is based on Bitburger's website which states the following relative to its mashing regime:

"Part of the mash is heated in a mash tun to fine-tune the flavour, colour and level of sweetness."

Perhaps that is just referencing a step mash, rather than a true decoction....I can't say that it is definitive by any means.

There are many references to breweries that don't decoct their light colored beer. Saves energy.

i am very on the fence about decocting at the homebrewing level, at least for my sake.


i made two good beers with it earlier on, and it isnt that much more difficult than a normal mash.

however, in many tests homebrewers claim that there is no discernible difference between decoct. and non-decocted. and it does take notable longer than a regular mash.


time is the critical factor for my homebrewing nowadays, so its not likely i'd bother again but i definitely want to try it.





do industrial brewers decoct? i could imagine many potentially easier things they could do to increase melanoidins in the beer (heck, homebrewers too). longer boil, adding a portion of intensely boiled wort to the main wort, adding melanoidin rich malts to the grist, etc.


i think decoction's real place was to be a historical way to fairly accurately hit important temperature ranges without the calculators/thermometres we have now.

[denny]

I think the decoction conclusion is based on Bitburger's website which states the following relative to its mashing regime:

"Part of the mash is heated in a mash tun to fine-tune the flavour, colour and level of sweetness."

Perhaps that is just referencing a step mash, rather than a true decoction....I can't say that it is definitive by any means.

There are many references to breweries that don't decoct their light colored beer. Saves energy.

I'm with Jeff.  Although I havent done extensive research, a cursory examination leads me to nelieve there are few who decoct.  If I'm wrong, Id love to see some numbers and names.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I think a simple grist comprised of 50% German Pils Malt and 50% German (or other continental origin) pale 2 row malt might be a reasonable starting point and then adjust by batch from there to get to your desired result.  I typically throw in some acidulated malt as part of the 2 row composition, for pH adjustment.  Decoction doesn't seem to make a huge difference in my experience, but others contend that it is vital.  Some add melanoiden malt, instead.

Good luck on your journey - I hope you experience good beer along the way, regardless of whether you get to the exact result you seek.

Thanks. Looking at some possible combos...

Avangard + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Avangard Premium Pils

Weyermann Pilsner + Weyermann Floor Malted Bo-Pils

Or maybe this:

17 lbs Avangard Premium Pils Malt
2 lbs Ireks Pale Malt

edit: The goal is to enter this beer in the Pale Bitter European Lager category, in an upcoming competition. German Pils, 5D.

[beersk]

I think the decoction conclusion is based on Bitburger's website which states the following relative to its mashing regime:

"Part of the mash is heated in a mash tun to fine-tune the flavour, colour and level of sweetness."

Perhaps that is just referencing a step mash, rather than a true decoction....I can't say that it is definitive by any means.

There are many references to breweries that don't decoct their light colored beer. Saves energy.

I'm with Jeff.  Although I havent done extensive research, a cursory examination leads me to nelieve there are few who decoct.  If I'm wrong, Id love to see some numbers and names.

Bitburger and the larger breweries in Germany definitely have done away with decoction. Kunze sites a typical hochkurz step infusion mash whilst keeping the oxygen out of any step of the process. As far as decoction goes, I think we can all agree that it is still a part of Pilsner Urquell's process.

For grain in a German pilsner, I'd go with Weyermann Barke Pils or Best Malz pils. I think Best Malz pils is my favorite. I'm still searching for a good American pils malt for freshness and it being more local. I had some Weyermann Bohemian Pils and I didn't like it. It just didn't have that nice crackery malty flavor that I want in German styles.

[hmbrw4life]

Okay...

It comes down to these -
Avangard Premium Pils Malt
Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt

If you were brewing a North German style beer, like a Bitburger, which malt would you choose?
And, would you use this for 100% of the grain bill?
I might add 10% Irecks Vienna.

As stated prior bitburger uses 2 malts. Pils being one, and Vienna not being the other. They also malt their own grain so, can't answer that Pilsner question. Also they decoct.

Ok. The target is a classic Pale Bitter North German Pils. Not trying to clone Bitburger, just using that as an example. Veltins could be another example. Another good one is Krombacher, situated in Westfalia, using local soft low mineral mountain spring water.

None of those beers will use a single malt, or any Pils malt you can get. Also they are decocted 

There's a theme here.

Can you say which large industrial German brewers still decoct?

I am not the holder of that information, so I can't. But the holders of that information are at themodernbrewhouse.com. There are many posts about who and who is not decocting, and what beers styles they are doing (or not doing it with).
Of the beers listed in this thread though (Bitburger, Krombacher for instance) 100% do. I have seen the posts from directly from the brewmasters. 

[hopfenundmalz]

Okay...

It comes down to these -
Avangard Premium Pils Malt
Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner Malt

If you were brewing a North German style beer, like a Bitburger, which malt would you choose?
And, would you use this for 100% of the grain bill?
I might add 10% Irecks Vienna.

As stated prior bitburger uses 2 malts. Pils being one, and Vienna not being the other. They also malt their own grain so, can't answer that Pilsner question. Also they decoct.

Ok. The target is a classic Pale Bitter North German Pils. Not trying to clone Bitburger, just using that as an example. Veltins could be another example. Another good one is Krombacher, situated in Westfalia, using local soft low mineral mountain spring water.

None of those beers will use a single malt, or any Pils malt you can get. Also they are decocted 

There's a theme here.

Can you say which large industrial German brewers still decoct?

I am not the holder of that information, so I can't. But the holders of that information are at themodernbrewhouse.com. There are many posts about who and who is not decocting, and what beers styles they are doing (or not doing it with).
Of the beers listed in this thread though (Bitburger, Krombacher for instance) 100% do. I have seen the posts from directly from the brewmasters.

In my own travels around Germany there are ones that decoct their beers, ones that do certain beers, and ones that don't.

Schönram does, but they switched from Weyermann to a local malt that is less modified. Brauerie Eck in Niederbayern decocts their Dunkel and uses mat from a small maltster near Regensburg.  Ayinger is said to not decoct the light biers, but they do for the dark beers and wheat beers.

It may be tradition  and what they can do on the brewing system they have.

[BrewBama]

I sent Bit a note to ask is they decoct their Pils.

“Hello

we look forward to hearing from you and will immediately forward your inquiry to the responsible department. An employee will then contact you shortly.

Thank you very much for contacting us with your request. We wish you a pleasant day.

Best regards
Your Bitburger Team

This is a system generated message.


BITBURGER BRAUGRUPPE GmbH
Römermauer 3 | D-54634 Bitburg
Phone: 06561 14-0 | E-Mail: info@bitburger.de “

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[erockrph]

I think a simple grist comprised of 50% German Pils Malt and 50% German (or other continental origin) pale 2 row malt might be a reasonable starting point and then adjust by batch from there to get to your desired result.  I typically throw in some acidulated malt as part of the 2 row composition, for pH adjustment.  Decoction doesn't seem to make a huge difference in my experience, but others contend that it is vital.  Some add melanoiden malt, instead.

Good luck on your journey - I hope you experience good beer along the way, regardless of whether you get to the exact result you seek.

Thanks. Looking at some possible combos...

Avangard + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Avangard Premium Pils

Weyermann Pilsner + Weyermann Floor Malted Bo-Pils

Or maybe this:

17 lbs Avangard Premium Pils Malt
2 lbs Ireks Pale Malt

edit: The goal is to enter this beer in the Pale Bitter European Lager category, in an upcoming competition. German Pils, 5D.

My base malt for many of my beers is a 70-30 blend of Avangard Pils and a continental pale ale malt (I'm currently using Swaen Pale Ale, but I have used Castle in the past). It is worth trying out a blend in a pale lager grist some time if you haven't tried it before.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I think a simple grist comprised of 50% German Pils Malt and 50% German (or other continental origin) pale 2 row malt might be a reasonable starting point and then adjust by batch from there to get to your desired result.  I typically throw in some acidulated malt as part of the 2 row composition, for pH adjustment.  Decoction doesn't seem to make a huge difference in my experience, but others contend that it is vital.  Some add melanoiden malt, instead.

Good luck on your journey - I hope you experience good beer along the way, regardless of whether you get to the exact result you seek.

Thanks. Looking at some possible combos...

Avangard + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Weyermann Pilsner

Ireks Pale + Avangard Premium Pils

Weyermann Pilsner + Weyermann Floor Malted Bo-Pils

Or maybe this:

17 lbs Avangard Premium Pils Malt
2 lbs Ireks Pale Malt

edit: The goal is to enter this beer in the Pale Bitter European Lager category, in an upcoming competition. German Pils, 5D.

My base malt for many of my beers is a 70-30 blend of Avangard Pils and a continental pale ale malt (I'm currently using Swaen Pale Ale, but I have used Castle in the past). It is worth trying out a blend in a pale lager grist some time if you haven't tried it before.

And that’s what we will do next Monday. BBD…Big Brew Day!

[BrewBama]

… Also they are decocted  …

…  If I'm wrong, Id love to see some numbers and names.

Bitburger and the larger breweries in Germany definitely have done away with decoction. …

This is another controversy that can be solved by simply asking the source.  It might not fit the narrative but it’s fairly easy to do and puts to bed the ‘Bro Science’ that proliferates thru speculation.

Bitburger’s reply:

“Thank you for your email and your interest in Bitburger.
 
We use for Bitburger Premium Pilsner a classical decoction mashing regime (2 step) which is adapted to our malt quality. The aim of our mashing regime is to create a wort with an optimal composition (in means of nutrients for the yeast) for good fermentation and to fix the fermentability of the wort. One key parameter of our beer and its drinkability is the ratio of residual extract (attenuation) and bitterness.
 
Kind regards,
Doreen Tietze”

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[denny]

Excellent info!  Thanks for taking the time to ask them.  I know Annie swears by decoction. Since she's the PU Master Homebrewer, I pay attention whether I actually do it or not.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Since we have gone down this "rabbit hole", decoction mashing is something we have done, but it is rare. But we always do multi-step infusion.
Example: 122 F with a 30 minute rest, 145 F with 30 min. rest, 158 F and 30 min rest, mash out at 172 F.

It is rare today that a large scale brewery does decoction. As stated, the Hofbrau Brewery does an infusion. I believe that Spaten does this also, but can't recall for certain.

I may do a decoction next week...maybe.

[denny]

Since we have gone down this "rabbit hole", decoction mashing is something we have done, but it is rare. But we always do multi-step infusion.
Example: 122 F with a 30 minute rest, 145 F with 30 min. rest, 158 F and 30 min rest, mash out at 172 F.

It is rare today that a large scale brewery does decoction. As stated, the Hofbrau Brewery does an infusion. I believe that Spaten does this also, but can't recall for certain.

I may do a decoction next week...maybe.

I do decoction once or twice a year just to see if I've missed anything and there's a reason to do them.  So far, I haven't convinced myself.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Since we have gone down this "rabbit hole", decoction mashing is something we have done, but it is rare. But we always do multi-step infusion.
Example: 122 F with a 30 minute rest, 145 F with 30 min. rest, 158 F and 30 min rest, mash out at 172 F.

It is rare today that a large scale brewery does decoction. As stated, the Hofbrau Brewery does an infusion. I believe that Spaten does this also, but can't recall for certain.

I may do a decoction next week...maybe.

I do decoction once or twice a year just to see if I've missed anything and there's a reason to do them.  So far, I haven't convinced myself.

This may be of interest...

Obviously we think decoction is well worth the time and effort. Two of the best examples of Bavarian helles I have had are from Andechs and Augustiner. I have toured both breweries, and both use decoction mashing.

The effects of a single decoction on our Helles (1.050 OG, 22 IBU, 95% Pils, 5% Vienna malt) produce an intangible depth of character with the bread and honey malt flavors. Few brewers describe their normal gravity, golden-colored lager as malty. The combination of German malts and decoction mashing create a golden lager that I like to describe as rich, velvety, round, and complex. That’s what decoction does — in subtle ways.