Author Topic: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews  (Read 1725 times)

Offline denny

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2021, 02:18:46 pm »
It seems to be often assumed that extract will have the appropriate salts for the style intended. But I checked with Williams Brewing about salts added for their extract production. It turned out that theirs is mashed with the municipal water, with no brewing salts added. I imagine the same is true of some other brands. Some added salts may be needed.

No, of course not for the style. They have no idea what style you're making.   Just to be able to mash properly.  But then you have no idea what they used and what the mineral load of the extract might be.
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Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2021, 04:32:02 pm »
but I suppose I should have looked into adding back some salts on those beers, too, to see if the flavor profile improves.

Over the last couple of years, across a couple of forums, people have talked about approaches to "dial in" flavor additions of minerals.  Generally, the approach was to add known amounts of minerals to a glass of beer, then adding the findings back to the recipe.  I've found that the approach(es) work - and the 'best' additions for a specific recipe are brand specific. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 04:35:47 pm by BrewnWKopperKat »

Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2021, 05:09:37 pm »
but I thought it was going to be nice to be able to make 2-6 SRM extract beers if desired.
There's a recipe in Zymurgy magazine, Sept 2021, on p 44 (Category 1, American Pale Beer) that may be of interest.

Offline fredthecat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2021, 11:27:06 pm »
but I thought it was going to be nice to be able to make 2-6 SRM extract beers if desired.
There's a recipe in Zymurgy magazine, Sept 2021, on p 44 (Category 1, American Pale Beer) that may be of interest.


look, no offense, but is english your first language? if not, youre not coming across clearly. idk what to say to your posts dude.

Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2021, 06:42:22 am »
but I thought it was going to be nice to be able to make 2-6 SRM extract beers if desired.
There's a recipe in Zymurgy magazine, Sept 2021, on p 44 (Category 1, American Pale Beer) that may be of interest.
look, no offense, but is english your first language? if not, youre not coming across clearly. idk what to say to your posts dude.
It's a recipe for an American Lager that placed first in its category in the 2021 National Homebrewers Competition.  DME + rice solids.  SRM of 4. 

I've seen similar recipes (not award winning at the moment ;) ) that use other fermentable ingredients to slightly lower the color of DME-based recipes. And I've made a couple of my own recipes using these ingredients.

So light colored DME-based recipes are both practical to make and occasionally award willing. 


« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 06:47:43 am by BrewnWKopperKat »

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2021, 06:49:03 am »
The owner of the LHBS that is nearest to me won many medals including NHC with extract beers.  So,yeah, they can be great and true to style.
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2021, 09:37:41 am »
but I thought it was going to be nice to be able to make 2-6 SRM extract beers if desired.
There's a recipe in Zymurgy magazine, Sept 2021, on p 44 (Category 1, American Pale Beer) that may be of interest.
look, no offense, but is english your first language? if not, youre not coming across clearly. idk what to say to your posts dude.
It's a recipe for an American Lager that placed first in its category in the 2021 National Homebrewers Competition.  DME + rice solids.  SRM of 4. 

I've seen similar recipes (not award winning at the moment ;) ) that use other fermentable ingredients to slightly lower the color of DME-based recipes. And I've made a couple of my own recipes using these ingredients.

So light colored DME-based recipes are both practical to make and occasionally award willing.

im not saying at all that all DME has issues.

im trying to clear up the issues with DME that i know im having.

Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2021, 10:10:44 am »
but I thought it was going to be nice to be able to make 2-6 SRM extract beers if desired.
There's a recipe in Zymurgy magazine, Sept 2021, on p 44 (Category 1, American Pale Beer) that may be of interest.
look, no offense, but is english your first language? if not, youre not coming across clearly. idk what to say to your posts dude.
It's a recipe for an American Lager that placed first in its category in the 2021 National Homebrewers Competition.  DME + rice solids.  SRM of 4. 

I've seen similar recipes (not award winning at the moment ;) ) that use other fermentable ingredients to slightly lower the color of DME-based recipes. And I've made a couple of my own recipes using these ingredients.

So light colored DME-based recipes are both practical to make and occasionally award willing.

im not saying at all that all DME has issues.

im trying to clear up the issues with DME that i know im having.

Early on in this topic/thread/subject, I offered to take a look at complete recipes where you encountered issues. 

The offer is still open. 

« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 10:12:30 am by BrewnWKopperKat »

Offline fredthecat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2021, 11:21:31 am »

Early on in this topic/thread/subject, I offered to take a look at complete recipes where you encountered issues. 

The offer is still open.

i explained in the first post, 100% DME fermentables, ~33 IBU or so, ~1.045 OG. multiple brews have this issue. you requested AA%, hop amounts, yeast.

hallertau and EKG hops separately for each brew, im sure you can guess the AA in those, significant amounts, ie total 4-6oz per brew, yeast 1 was S-189 and yeast 2 was WLP550.

please, go ahead and diagnose now that you have the certainly related info of AA and amount of hops for an issue that is 100% the fact i used DME. considering i've never had this complaint before in any LME or all-grain brew.


Offline denny

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2021, 11:27:09 am »
Have you had this issue with other DME?  Entirely possible it's simply the way that extractis made.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline fredthecat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2021, 01:14:48 pm »
Have you had this issue with other DME?  Entirely possible it's simply the way that extractis made.

I've always used LME in the past.

I don't truthfully know the cause. But I suspect its a mix of causes. I have made brews that are pale that were half LME/half DME with no specialty grains (reason was that the DME was wheat, LME was cheaper and I liked the quality but was not available in wheat.) and tasted very good. I made a belgian single this way that was one of my favourite brews.

The factors I believe are the combination of a lack of flavour of the pilsen/golden light DME i used and a low carbonation. I didn't mention but I targeted only about 1.7 vols for the most recent and about the same for the previous one that had an issue.

maybe exacerbated by some mineral imbalance I am not aware of. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/ion-additions-from-briess-pilsner-dme.186443/


I sampled one last night, and was already pretty drunk but it just wasn't that great and still had the issue, 3 weeks in bottle now.

This isn't a brewing-ending issue for me at all, I do about 50% of my beers all-grain, 25% partial mash and 25% all-extract.


Solution for me, barring someone who has had this issue or can explain it is:

1. stop making pale, all-DME brews.
2. switch back to using LME for brews that are supposed to be fairly pale and accept the slight increase in SRM for an overall better flavour.
3. continue using DME in partial-mash brews or ones with strong specialty grain additions ie. a lb of black malt and a 1lb of crystal on top of a DME base.




the reason for me making this thread was to crowdsource a solution or answer and perhaps warn people of a potential issue (though apparently it isnt one for most)


Offline denny

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2021, 01:31:01 pm »
4. Use different DME
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline BrewnWKopperKat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2021, 05:01:12 am »
From the water profile,
[...]
alkalinity = 73
[...]
alkalinity may be a factor:
Quote
How much alkalinity is high? [...]  alkalinity greater than 50 ppm can be considered high for extract brewing because you are rehydrating a dehydrated wort that already has minerals and alkalinity in it. The alkalinity in your water will add to what’s already there.
https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-water/

« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 05:02:47 am by BrewnWKopperKat »

Offline fredthecat

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2021, 08:42:10 am »
From the water profile,
[...]
alkalinity = 73
[...]
alkalinity may be a factor:
Quote
How much alkalinity is high? [...]  alkalinity greater than 50 ppm can be considered high for extract brewing because you are rehydrating a dehydrated wort that already has minerals and alkalinity in it. The alkalinity in your water will add to what’s already there.
https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-water/

that's a good answer. thank you.

i think i can see potential in this answer. and checking my notes again the first of the two beers i said had an issue in fact was about 2/3rds tap water 1/3 RO water. looking even further back, the extract beer that was very good tasting was made with 100% RO water.

The main way I could figure this out though would be to try a new DME batch.


Offline neuse

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Re: flat(?)/insipid tasting DME pale brews
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2021, 03:20:52 pm »
[Quote: The main way I could figure this out though would be to try a new DME batch.]
Go for it - for science.