Author Topic: Vinnie teaches LODO  (Read 1191 times)

Offline lupulus

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Vinnie teaches LODO
« on: October 21, 2021, 12:04:55 pm »
If you are interested in Modern German Brewing (aka LODO brewing), you can learn it from Vinnie here.

https://beerandbrewing.com/full-video-all-about-oxygen-with-russian-river-brewing/

If cost is a problem, you have lots of free content here.
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Prost!

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 02:34:46 pm »
He talked about keeping O2 out of the cold side years ago at NHC on one slide. He talked about purging transfer hoses, and so on.
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Offline denny

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 03:06:27 pm »
If I decide to open a brewery I'm sure it would be useful info.
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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2021, 03:42:59 pm »
Off-topic but I think I picked up some good information when I looked into LO even if the hardcore LO guys wouldn't consider my processes to be LO.  Deoxing the water with yeast + sugar, underletting the mash, using a mashcap, purging the keg with CO2 from active fermentation, doing closed-transfers from fermenter to keg, etc. have all helped me make better beer.  Is it LO?  Probably not but the processes make better beer, IMO.  I may have been HIGH-oxygen at some point and now I'm LOWER-oxygen.  :P
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2021, 04:57:40 pm »
Off-topic but I think I picked up some good information when I looked into LO even if the hardcore LO guys wouldn't consider my processes to be LO.  Deoxing the water with yeast + sugar, underletting the mash, using a mashcap, purging the keg with CO2 from active fermentation, doing closed-transfers from fermenter to keg, etc. have all helped me make better beer.  Is it LO?  Probably not but the processes make better beer, IMO.  I may have been HIGH-oxygen at some point and now I'm LOWER-oxygen. 
You are Low Oxygen!

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 04:59:31 pm »
If I decide to open a brewery I'm sure it would be useful info.
You have 20x more exposure to oxygen than a pro.
See square-cube principle.

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Offline denny

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 05:06:29 pm »
If I decide to open a brewery I'm sure it would be useful info.
You have 20x more exposure to oxygen than a pro.
See square-cube principle.

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And 20x less concern about it.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 05:49:15 pm »
Me, too, but I don't do everything every time.  Lower boil vigor, purging all kegs and post-ferment O2-free (as far as I can get) transfers - yes, always.  Add to that fermenting under pressure - not LO related, but it is part of my typical process.

Asked to defend it, I would say I can't cite any science, but I like the results and it isn't a lot of extra work.  The key here is YMMV and mine does, too.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2021, 06:15:36 pm »
If I decide to open a brewery I'm sure it would be useful info.
You have 20x more exposure to oxygen than a pro.
See square-cube principle.

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And 20x less concern about it.

I just talked to a buddy who won Best of Show with two of his lagers.  I asked him for secrets.  I asked him about LODO.  He told me not to worry about it.

But this is anecdotal.
Dave

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Offline BrewBama

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Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2021, 06:26:45 pm »
Off-topic but I think I picked up some good information when I looked into LO even if the hardcore LO guys wouldn't consider my processes to be LO.  Deoxing the water with yeast + sugar, underletting the mash, using a mashcap, purging the keg with CO2 from active fermentation, doing closed-transfers from fermenter to keg, etc. have all helped me make better beer.  Is it LO?  Probably not but the processes make better beer, IMO.  I may have been HIGH-oxygen at some point and now I'm LOWER-oxygen. 
You are Low Oxygen!

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Sounds like some of the same processes I picked up and implemented along the way.  I probably fit in the “O2 Avoidance” or Ken’s “Low(er) O2” Brewer category.

I try to take a Common Sense Approach to Brewing. Low Dissolved Oxygen (Low DO) in beer is always a concern to inhibit staling. Some take this to extreme IMO but I choose to relax and not sweat the small stuff.

I do stuff not because it’s Low DO but for a variety of other reasons. If it helps lower O2 pickup, well that’s an added benefit.

1. I underlet because I don’t want to lift a kettle of hot water, ladle it in, splash it, and it eliminates dough balls.
2. I use Brewtan B because it makes clear beer. The fact that it chelates ions that cause the oxidation reaction in the mash tun is a plus.
3. I mash with a cover on my MLT because it reduces steam in the brewery (aka laundry room) and helps maintain mash temp.  My vent is only over my boil kettle.
4. I boil at 2 kW which creates a nice, gentle, asymmetrical, rolling boil because I have predetermined my post boil volume, hop schedule, post boil salt concentration and post boil SG on this energy level.
5. I close transfer because it’s easier to leave the fermenter in place, attach a hose, and open the spigot vs move it to a higher location to open transfer thru the keg lid.

I do return the wort under the liquid level as I recirculate the entire mash and purge my kegs for no other reason than O2 avoidance. Post fermentation my goal is to reduce O2 intake and keep it cold.

I’d like to test my beer for DO some day just to see how far off I am.

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« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 06:43:07 pm by BrewBama »
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Offline beersk

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2021, 04:41:59 pm »
Off-topic but I think I picked up some good information when I looked into LO even if the hardcore LO guys wouldn't consider my processes to be LO.  Deoxing the water with yeast + sugar, underletting the mash, using a mashcap, purging the keg with CO2 from active fermentation, doing closed-transfers from fermenter to keg, etc. have all helped me make better beer.  Is it LO?  Probably not but the processes make better beer, IMO.  I may have been HIGH-oxygen at some point and now I'm LOWER-oxygen. 
You are Low Oxygen!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk
Sounds like some of the same processes I picked up and implemented along the way.  I probably fit in the “O2 Avoidance” or Ken’s “Low(er) O2” Brewer category.

I try to take a Common Sense Approach to Brewing. Low Dissolved Oxygen (Low DO) in beer is always a concern to inhibit staling. Some take this to extreme IMO but I choose to relax and not sweat the small stuff.

I do stuff not because it’s Low DO but for a variety of other reasons. If it helps lower O2 pickup, well that’s an added benefit.

1. I underlet because I don’t want to lift a kettle of hot water, ladle it in, splash it, and it eliminates dough balls.
2. I use Brewtan B because it makes clear beer. The fact that it chelates ions that cause the oxidation reaction in the mash tun is a plus.
3. I mash with a cover on my MLT because it reduces steam in the brewery (aka laundry room) and helps maintain mash temp.  My vent is only over my boil kettle.
4. I boil at 2 kW which creates a nice, gentle, asymmetrical, rolling boil because I have predetermined my post boil volume, hop schedule, post boil salt concentration and post boil SG on this energy level.
5. I close transfer because it’s easier to leave the fermenter in place, attach a hose, and open the spigot vs move it to a higher location to open transfer thru the keg lid.

I do return the wort under the liquid level as I recirculate the entire mash and purge my kegs for no other reason than O2 avoidance. Post fermentation my goal is to reduce O2 intake and keep it cold.

I’d like to test my beer for DO some day just to see how far off I am.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed perceived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don't worry too much about it as my beer doesn't last more than a couple months in the keg before it's gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to "That German Lager Flavor" I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn't getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don't have the energy to start making my own sauergut.
Jesse

Offline denny

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2021, 04:52:23 pm »
Off-topic but I think I picked up some good information when I looked into LO even if the hardcore LO guys wouldn't consider my processes to be LO.  Deoxing the water with yeast + sugar, underletting the mash, using a mashcap, purging the keg with CO2 from active fermentation, doing closed-transfers from fermenter to keg, etc. have all helped me make better beer.  Is it LO?  Probably not but the processes make better beer, IMO.  I may have been HIGH-oxygen at some point and now I'm LOWER-oxygen. 
You are Low Oxygen!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk
Sounds like some of the same processes I picked up and implemented along the way.  I probably fit in the “O2 Avoidance” or Ken’s “Low(er) O2” Brewer category.

I try to take a Common Sense Approach to Brewing. Low Dissolved Oxygen (Low DO) in beer is always a concern to inhibit staling. Some take this to extreme IMO but I choose to relax and not sweat the small stuff.

I do stuff not because it’s Low DO but for a variety of other reasons. If it helps lower O2 pickup, well that’s an added benefit.

1. I underlet because I don’t want to lift a kettle of hot water, ladle it in, splash it, and it eliminates dough balls.
2. I use Brewtan B because it makes clear beer. The fact that it chelates ions that cause the oxidation reaction in the mash tun is a plus.
3. I mash with a cover on my MLT because it reduces steam in the brewery (aka laundry room) and helps maintain mash temp.  My vent is only over my boil kettle.
4. I boil at 2 kW which creates a nice, gentle, asymmetrical, rolling boil because I have predetermined my post boil volume, hop schedule, post boil salt concentration and post boil SG on this energy level.
5. I close transfer because it’s easier to leave the fermenter in place, attach a hose, and open the spigot vs move it to a higher location to open transfer thru the keg lid.

I do return the wort under the liquid level as I recirculate the entire mash and purge my kegs for no other reason than O2 avoidance. Post fermentation my goal is to reduce O2 intake and keep it cold.

I’d like to test my beer for DO some day just to see how far off I am.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed percseived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don't worry too much about it as my beer doesn't last more than a couple months in the keg before it's gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to "That German Lager Flavor" I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn't getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don't have the energy to start making my own sauergut.

Bravo!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline lupulus

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2021, 04:54:41 pm »
Nothing wrong with what you are doing.

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Offline Village Taphouse

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2021, 06:26:23 pm »
These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed perceived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don't worry too much about it as my beer doesn't last more than a couple months in the keg before it's gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to "That German Lager Flavor" I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn't getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don't have the energy to start making my own sauergut.
Funny but I could have posted that myself although I probably was not one of the 'early adopters of LO'.  I was doing more than I listed with BTB, trifecta mix, spunding, etc. and at some point I felt like my beers were going backwards.  I took a step back and looked closer at what I was doing and I kept the pieces that I thought worked and I simplified.  I also looked back on many batches I made prior to doing ANY low-oxygen steps and I was pretty happy with them.  So I still do the ones I listed, I made some simplifications with regard to pH throughout the process, I cut out trifecta and BTB altogether (my wort and beer only touch stainless and plastic so BTB is not necessary), I started getting some better clarity by using ClearZyme and my beers have been great lately.  Again, my old techniques may have been really bad... splashing and stirring my way through the brewday and these steps maybe just got me to a better place but not really in line with true LO brewers. 
Ken from Chicago. 
A day without beer is like... just kidding, I have no idea.

Offline beersk

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Re: Vinnie teaches LODO
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2021, 06:35:07 pm »
These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed perceived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don't worry too much about it as my beer doesn't last more than a couple months in the keg before it's gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to "That German Lager Flavor" I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn't getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don't have the energy to start making my own sauergut.
Funny but I could have posted that myself although I probably was not one of the 'early adopters of LO'.  I was doing more than I listed with BTB, trifecta mix, spunding, etc. and at some point I felt like my beers were going backwards.  I took a step back and looked closer at what I was doing and I kept the pieces that I thought worked and I simplified.  I also looked back on many batches I made prior to doing ANY low-oxygen steps and I was pretty happy with them.  So I still do the ones I listed, I made some simplifications with regard to pH throughout the process, I cut out trifecta and BTB altogether (my wort and beer only touch stainless and plastic so BTB is not necessary), I started getting some better clarity by using ClearZyme and my beers have been great lately.  Again, my old techniques may have been really bad... splashing and stirring my way through the brewday and these steps maybe just got me to a better place but not really in line with true LO brewers. 
Maybe, probably, but I bet the differences weren't that enormous as to give you pause. Maybe with hoppier styles, but you don't really brew hoppy styles. I guess, in the end, maybe it isn't about brewing the best possible beer, but rather finding the best possible process to continue the joy of homebrew. I don't know, maybe that's BS, just came to mind.
Jesse