Author Topic: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA  (Read 2073 times)

Offline beersk

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2021, 12:41:02 pm »
Near the end of the podcast, when answering how you can tell if you have too much HSA, the guest mentioned something that sounded like "tea formation". Can someone explain to me what he meant?

Teig formation, the top dough.  I thought that was interesting because I never knew it was related to oxidation.  Apparently it was mentioned here a while back:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32953.0
Michael Dawson mentioned it in the Decoction Day episode of Brewing TV back in 2011 or whenever that was and I always thought it was spelled Taige, because that's how he pronounced it. Proteins, globumins, etc. in the mash. Related to oxidation? I haven't a clue. It's something I've seen even when I do low o2 brewing, so maybe I'm doing something wrong [probably]. But I doubt it. It seems related to grain more than process. I don't know.

EDIT: And I also figured if it was in my mash that meant that those proteins weren't making it into the boil kettle, which I always figured was a good thing. I always noticed it more when I got especially clear wort into the kettle.
I found this thread for reference. I must've been breaking from the homebrew forums when this was started: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32953.0
This was my thinking, and like you, I did get a lot more of the sludge with some malts compared to others. Barke pils and Golden promise give me very little, rahr old world pils and rahr pale ale malt give me a lot


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Hence my thinking that the statement that teig means mash oxidation is unfounded and is really malt related. I've seen it both in low o2 brewing and not and I'm very careful when I do low o2. Either way, that stuff staying in the mash tun is preferred over getting into my kettle.
Jesse

Offline lupulus

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2021, 01:48:02 pm »


Near the end of the podcast, when answering how you can tell if you have too much HSA, the guest mentioned something that sounded like "tea formation". Can someone explain to me what he meant?

Teig formation, the top dough.  I thought that was interesting because I never knew it was related to oxidation.  Apparently it was mentioned here a while back:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32953.0
Michael Dawson mentioned it in the Decoction Day episode of Brewing TV back in 2011 or whenever that was and I always thought it was spelled Taige, because that's how he pronounced it. Proteins, globumins, etc. in the mash. Related to oxidation? I haven't a clue. It's something I've seen even when I do low o2 brewing, so maybe I'm doing something wrong [probably]. But I doubt it. It seems related to grain more than process. I don't know.

EDIT: And I also figured if it was in my mash that meant that those proteins weren't making it into the boil kettle, which I always figured was a good thing. I always noticed it more when I got especially clear wort into the kettle.
I found this thread for reference. I must've been breaking from the homebrew forums when this was started: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32953.0
This was my thinking, and like you, I did get a lot more of the sludge with some malts compared to others. Barke pils and Golden promise give me very little, rahr old world pils and rahr pale ale malt give me a lot


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Hence my thinking that the statement that teig means mash oxidation is unfounded and is really malt related. I've seen it both in low o2 brewing and not and I'm very careful when I do low o2. Either way, that stuff staying in the mash tun is preferred over getting into my kettle.

Joe explains it in the podcast.
The oxidation of thiols lead to changes in protein structure that in turn lead to teig. Joe says that to get to teig, most your thiols have to be oxidized.

If interested...
Thiols are -SH compounds many aminoacids within proteins.
Then they lose the H by oxidation, S form disulfide bridges changing the structure of proteins.


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Offline beersk

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2021, 02:13:51 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Jesse

Offline Bilsch

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2021, 03:27:50 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.

If you are recirculating then look for leaks in your circuit. Even though you don't see water leaking out, when the pump is running and there is liquid movement, air can be getting in. I found many such leaks in the actuation shafts of valves that because of the venturi action in the center section that quite commonly draws in air. It's maddening since they wont leak under pressure testing because of the design shape of the valve shaft and seal. I was only able to track this down after installing an inline DO meter downstream of the valves. Because they are cast and not machined well some valves are worse than others. It is wise to disassemble and inspect the internal pocket where the inner seal ring sits for casting flash. And lastly it helps immensely to lubricate the valve shaft packings with a drop of mineral oil and keep them very tight.

There are a lot of people who have tracked down similar impossible seeming oxygen ingress problems in their systems but since few hang out here you won't see much discussion about it.

Happy leak hunting!

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2021, 03:49:49 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


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Offline denny

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2021, 04:16:51 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


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Offline lupulus

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2021, 04:25:16 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


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Offline Bilsch

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2021, 04:29:39 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


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A-FREEKIN-MEN!

In the last few years, I've learned how to let go in my brewing and my enjoyment has skyocketed.  Enjoyment is the first reason I brew....beer is the second.

Since you say roughly this same thing at least every other day, one gets the feeling you have an issue with the people who enjoy putting in the extra work. If not then why the broken record about how much joy you get from doing less?

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2021, 04:46:07 pm »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


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A-FREEKIN-MEN!

In the last few years, I've learned how to let go in my brewing and my enjoyment has skyocketed.  Enjoyment is the first reason I brew....beer is the second.

Since you say roughly this same thing at least every other day, one gets the feeling you have an issue with the people who enjoy putting in the extra work. If not then why the broken record about how much joy you get from doing less?
Cant speak for Denny, but I imagine it’s because we all have different methods and preferences for homebrewing and a forum is the place that we talk about them. You say that Denny is a broken record, but LODO can get quite tiresome to hear about too.


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Offline Bilsch

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2021, 04:54:58 pm »
Cant speak for Denny, but I imagine it’s because we all have different methods and preferences for homebrewing and a forum is the place that we talk about them. You say that Denny is a broken record, but LODO can get quite tiresome to hear about too.

At least its a range of different topics under the low oxygen heading and not simply how happy one is not going to the extra work.

Offline majorvices

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2021, 05:32:01 pm »
Cant speak for Denny, but I imagine it’s because we all have different methods and preferences for homebrewing and a forum is the place that we talk about them. You say that Denny is a broken record, but LODO can get quite tiresome to hear about too.

At least its a range of different topics under the low oxygen heading and not simply how happy one is not going to the extra work.

hey dude, why don't you give it a break? You are offering nothing to the convo here except stirring the pot. If you don't like the way things are discussed feel free to leave! Don't let the door ... you know...

Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2021, 05:45:08 pm »
Both sides are a bit tiring at this point. Those who sit in between the non sense seem to have the right attitude.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 05:47:04 pm by Iliff Ave »
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2021, 05:55:46 pm »
I'm on the "non-trolling" side. As a moderator I'm pretty sure that is my role here.

Offline Cliffs

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2021, 09:18:46 pm »
I regret even addressing it.


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Offline ttash

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Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2021, 09:27:41 pm »
Wow everyone, why not just chill out and have a beer, that you made at home, however you like to make it? Sheesh.