Author Topic: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA  (Read 2213 times)

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 5462
Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2021, 06:24:47 am »
…in my opinion this subject will always be connected to the person that dropped it here first.

Your hero was far from “the first” my friend. He may have researched, reviewed, and edited but give credit where credit is due. …and IMO he has turned away far more than he has attracted.  A “connection” I would not be proud of ….but that’s just me.

A simple search can reveal HSA discussion here as far back as ‘10. (probably goes back further but the search engine has limitations).

…and then there’s this:

For the yet unaware it's important to mention that late famous homebrewer (and mathematician) George Fix, Ninkasi and AHA distinguished service award winner, discussed HSA in detail in the 90s.

Even among his peers, though thanked for his contributions, he wasn’t given authorship credit in the ‘original’ paper which started all the controversy.

Not until v3 was acknowledgment added by the authors (CT, Brandon, Dave and Nico) for his (along with yourself, Kit, and Todd) “ideas, role, assistance, review and edit” that further reveal he wasn’t “the first” but one of many:

“It took many minds and considerable number of hours of trial and error and ruminations over Kunze and Narzis to work out the minor details of adapting inert brewing methods to the homebrew scale.”

I will not take anything from him. He certainly is a smart guy and has contributed to the Low O2 world. However, IMO, accumulating data from previous original material, being thanked for assistance, and being one of many reviewers is far from being “the first”.

—- break —-

No worries.  He can always start up a fourth or fifth account if he wants.

Did he seriously make alt accounts?

Given the same confrontational style, many feel ‘hmbrwr4life’ is his alt acct.

From what I understand the original authors of the paper — his own peers — banned him from their website which has become a trend with him. 

Maybe getting banned from at least three websites might give one pause to reconsider their approach but that hasn’t seemed to happen yet.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 08:00:57 am by BrewBama »

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11221
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2021, 07:40:36 am »
I sometimes forget that some people here haven't ben brewing for 25+ years and can't remember the countless debates about HSA. I have always chosen to minimize it as much as possible. Charlie Papazian even recommenced putting cinnamon in his mash to counter the effects of HSA (cinnamon is a power antioxidant) back in his books published in the early 80's. Definitely not a new debate! I'm not putting sulphates in my mash or doing the extra work to pre-boil all my hot liquor because that's just not in the cards for me personally. But I don't discredit the concerns of HSA. I was using BTB before anyone here on the forum had ever mentioned its use because it was recommended to me by another pro-brewer. As an aside, i'm not using it now because the brewery i am operating is on a razor thin budget and i just haven't seen the positive effects -- but if we were in the black i'd definitely consider using it again. I've never used it for homebrew and have not seen the need since I am not storing homebrew longer than several weeks at cold temperatures.

As far as denny goes, every time someone posts something about being a pro-brewer I can be sure that he's going to post back that "he once turned a hobby into a career and never again!" or something like that. Never, not once, have I taken it personally or felt the need to troll him about it. Nor did I ever get my feelings hurt. That's just Denny!

I have not yet listened to the podcast but i most certainly will! i love the MBA podcasts and listen to most of them anyway.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 07:43:03 am by majorvices »

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 25892
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2021, 08:10:22 am »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A-FREEKIN-MEN!

In the last few years, I've learned how to let go in my brewing and my enjoyment has skyocketed.  Enjoyment is the first reason I brew....beer is the second.

Since you say roughly this same thing at least every other day, one gets the feeling you have an issue with the people who enjoy putting in the extra work. If not then why the broken record about how much joy you get from doing less?

I have no issue at all.  That's their decisions like I make mine.  My purpose is to make people realize there's an alternative.  And why the broken record about how superior LO is?  Works both ways.  We each advocate for different methods.  Nothing wrong with that.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 5462
Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2021, 08:16:18 am »

I did listen to the podcast and it was good, a lot of technical terms thrown around for the less science-y brewers. I prefer a little bit of art and a little bit of science when it comes to brewing.
+1. In Brewing Better Beer, Gordon Strong said, “Brewing is both an art and a science. Don’t overemphasize the science part.”



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline beersk

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 3721
  • In the night!
Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2021, 08:26:28 am »
Then I wonder just how in the heck my mash is oxidizing when using the yeast oxygen scavenging method, plus underletting, plus using a mash cap (stainless steel lid), plus gently stirring, plus using the trifecta mix, plus not splashing... Hmmm. If that truly is the case, I don't know what else I can do to stop that from happening. Quit brewing I guess because there's just no hope for me.
Just my opinion, but when i reach this level of.. I dunno, frustration/exasperation then a lot of the joy is sucked out of homebrewing for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I actually didn't write this as a conveyance of frustration. I was being sarcastic and am more annoyed than anything. Do I believe low o2 brewing is superior? Having done my own side by side tests, I can say that it does make a difference but it doesn't necessarily make a better beer for me. And do I care if I see teig in my mash? Nope. I'd rather that stuff stayed in the mash tun than make it into my kettle. But I will still brew low o2 on occasion because it's how I brew my 2.5 gallon batches and the yeast oxygen scavenging method is easy.
By the way, Bilsch, I don't recirculate or use pumps, so the only place o2 could ingress is in the transfer tubing and only initially when I start transferring the strike water to the mashtun to underlet. That's part of the sulfites in the water's job to protect.
Jesse

Offline lupulus

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
  • Think like a proton, stay positive!
Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2021, 09:15:58 am »
Taste is subjective.
If someone likes one beer better than the other,  they are never wrong.  That's what they taste.
Inert brewing (aka LODO) combined with low thermal stress produces beers with unique biochemical characteristics. Currently, all very large brewing equipment is manufactured for this brewing method.
They do this mainly for flavor stability,  but it does change the taste of subtle beers.

Is it better?
NO, IT IS NOT.
Better is a subjective concept.
My daughter doesn't like beer.
Most of the world don't like bitter flavors.
I have a friend that loves pastry stouts (really?! )
The beer you most love may be made with malt extract, hop extract, and no temperature control. If that's what you like, there's nothing wrong.
Most American beer drinkers still drink macro American beer. Are they wrong?  Less sophisticated? Of course not.

The goal of this post is to provide new information to those who may be interested.

Cheers!


Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”  Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline BrewBama

  • Official Poobah of No Life. (I Got Ban Hammered by Drew)
  • *********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Joe Williams from UC Davis discusses HSA
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2021, 09:23:00 am »
Well said. Cheers!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk