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Author Topic: Post boil hopping  (Read 1597 times)

Offline MNWayne

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Post boil hopping
« on: November 17, 2021, 09:08:30 am »
I need a little clarification.  The terms flameout, whirlpool and hopstand, get thrown around a lot.  I always assumed they were interchangeable terms but I'll bet I'm wrong.  What's the consensus?
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 09:11:47 am »
Flameout- add hops to wort as you turn off your heat source and immediately begin chilling

Hop stand- chill to a specific temperature, add hops to wort, and hold at or near that temperature for a specific time

Whirlpool- I’ve never done that one. I’ll let someone else answer.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2021, 09:53:35 am »
I'd say that whirlpool is either of the first two, but adding a (re)circulation to the kettle, whether by pump or stirring, then letting the debris settle to the middle of the kettle before racking to primary.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2021, 06:31:02 pm »
Whirlpool refers to a craft brewers practice of adding hops to a whirlpool to drop out hot break before the wort is cooled in a heat exchanger. Whirlpooling is a continuous process - hot wort is introduced into the whirlpool while whirlpooled wort is drawn off. In homebrew speak, whirlpooling can be the same as hop stand AFAIK.

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2021, 06:30:07 am »
I find this post quite informative.  I will be attempting a NEIPA in January and the recipe I’m looking at calls for hop additions at two of these points - whirlpool and hopstand.  However, when I enter this schedule into BS3, the IBU increase is very minimal.

So, I guess my question is: at what temperature do hops no longer give up bitterness?  Other than adding dry hops into the secondary, I’ve never added hops past the flameout stage.  So any additional information and knowledge on this subject would be appreciated.  Thanks!!!  :)
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Offline neuse

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2021, 08:13:54 am »
I find this post quite informative.  I will be attempting a NEIPA in January and the recipe I’m looking at calls for hop additions at two of these points - whirlpool and hopstand.  However, when I enter this schedule into BS3, the IBU increase is very minimal.

So, I guess my question is: at what temperature do hops no longer give up bitterness?  Other than adding dry hops into the secondary, I’ve never added hops past the flameout stage.  So any additional information and knowledge on this subject would be appreciated.  Thanks!!!  :)
This article has lots of info about hop utilization at varying temperatures: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2021, 08:46:33 am »
I find this post quite informative.  I will be attempting a NEIPA in January and the recipe I’m looking at calls for hop additions at two of these points - whirlpool and hopstand.  However, when I enter this schedule into BS3, the IBU increase is very minimal.

So, I guess my question is: at what temperature do hops no longer give up bitterness?  Other than adding dry hops into the secondary, I’ve never added hops past the flameout stage.  So any additional information and knowledge on this subject would be appreciated.  Thanks!!!  :)
This article has lots of info about hop utilization at varying temperatures: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

This article sure does have a lot of info!!  Ill check it out!  Thanks for sharing it!
Joliet, IL

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Offline denny

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2021, 09:19:28 am »
I find this post quite informative.  I will be attempting a NEIPA in January and the recipe I’m looking at calls for hop additions at two of these points - whirlpool and hopstand.  However, when I enter this schedule into BS3, the IBU increase is very minimal.

So, I guess my question is: at what temperature do hops no longer give up bitterness?  Other than adding dry hops into the secondary, I’ve never added hops past the flameout stage.  So any additional information and knowledge on this subject would be appreciated.  Thanks!!!  :)
This article has lots of info about hop utilization at varying temperatures: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

One of the reasons that I use the Grainfather recipe software is because it implements the mIBU formula from that site.  It takes into account whirlpool and even dry hop additions.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2021, 11:50:38 am »
I need a little clarification.  The terms flameout, whirlpool and hopstand, get thrown around a lot.  I always assumed they were interchangeable terms but I'll bet I'm wrong.  What's the consensus?

First off, "flameout" is not a real brewing term (I challenge anyone to find a reference to that term pre-craft beer movement).  It was coined by some home brewer post-2000 because it was not in general use for the first decade that I brewed.  The traditional term is "knockout" or in old school home brewing terms "time 0" hops.  It is like the use home brewer term "dough-in" instead of the professional brewer and distiller term "mash-in."  It is the opposite of "mash-out." A dough-in is a specific type of mash-in that uses a very low hot liquor to grist ratio.  Greg Noonan covered it in his book on lager brewing.   There is a lot of stupid in home brewing that one cannot fix and in my humble opinion "flameout" and "dough-in" are prime examples, so is the use of Erlenmeyer flasks and stir plates for yeast propagation, but I digress.

With that said, as other have mentioned hop stands and whirlpool hopping are specialize forms of knock-out additions.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 12:20:46 pm by Saccharomyces »

Offline denny

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2021, 12:01:18 pm »
I need a little clarification.  The terms flameout, whirlpool and hopstand, get thrown around a lot.  I always assumed they were interchangeable terms but I'll bet I'm wrong.  What's the consensus?

First off, "flameout" is not a real brewing term (I challenge anyone to find a reference to that term pre-craft beer movement).  It was coined by some home brewer post-2000 because it was not in general use for the first decade that I brewed.  The traditional term is "knock-out" or in old school home brewing terms "time 0" hops.  It is like the use home brewer term "dough-in" instead of the professional brewer and distiller term "mash-in."  It is the opposite of "mash-out." A dough-in is a specific type of mash-in that uses a very low hot liquor to grist ratio.  Greg Noonan covered it in his book on lager brewing.   There is a lot of stupid in home brewing that one cannot fix and in my humble opinion "flameout" and "dough-in" are prime examples, so is the use of Erlenmeyer flasks and stir plates for yeast propagation, but I digress.

With that said, as other have mentioned hop stands and whirlpool hopping are specialize forms of knock-out additions.

Simply because a term is coined by a homebrewer doesn't mean it's not "real" brewing terminology.
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2021, 12:33:47 pm »
Simply because a term is coined by a homebrewer doesn't mean it's not "real" brewing terminology.

I have to disagree with you, Denny.  We should not be fragmenting the brewing lexicon. There is a difference between creating a new term for a new process and renaming an existing process because one's level of literacy in a discipline is lacking.  Discipline lexicons exist for a reason. They exist to give practitioners a common language with which to exchange information.  Both "dough-in" and "flameout" are prime examples of brewing lexicon fragmentation.  These terms were created out of brewing illiteracy and all they do is add confusion to an already often confusing discipline.  Case in point, the non-brewing term "flameout" has become so ubiquitous that even John Palmer has been forced to use it.  However, if one read's his book, one quickly discovers that he used the term "knockout." The term "knockout" has been used in brewing for hundreds of years.  Flameout is little more than an red-headed stepchild born from brewing illiteracy.  It is an example of Mr. Ron White means when he says, "you cannot fix stupid."

Offline denny

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2021, 12:41:29 pm »
Simply because a term is coined by a homebrewer doesn't mean it's not "real" brewing terminology.

I have to disagree with you, Denny.  We should not be fragmenting the brewing lexicon. There is a difference between creating a new term for a new process and renaming an existing process because one's level of literacy in a discipline is lacking.  Discipline lexicons exist for a reason. They exist to give practitioners a common language with which to exchange information.  Both "dough-in" and "flameout" are prime examples of brewing lexicon fragmentation.  These terms were created out of brewing illiteracy and all they do is add confusion to an already often confusing discipline.  Case in point, the non-brewing term "flameout" has become so ubiquitous that even John Palmer has been forced to use it.  However, if one read's his book, one quickly discovers that he used the term "knockout." The term "knockout" has been used in brewing for hundreds of years.  Flameout is little more than an red-headed stepchild born from brewing illiteracy.  It is an example of Mr. Ron White means when he says, "you cannot fix stupid."

You are free to disagree.  I see it as augmenting, not fragmenting.  I'm a homebrewer....things are often different for me than for a commercial brewer.
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Offline Richard

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2021, 01:06:32 pm »
With electric brewing becoming so much more common, the term "flameout" is already becoming an anachronism even within the homebrewing community. Perhaps we electric brewers should say "sparkout". Or maybe "knockout" covers it, although it is not clear to me what was being knocked up to that point.
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Offline denny

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2021, 01:50:44 pm »
With electric brewing becoming so much more common, the term "flameout" is already becoming an anachronism even within the homebrewing community. Perhaps we electric brewers should say "sparkout". Or maybe "knockout" covers it, although it is not clear to me what was being knocked up to that point.

Yep.  Kinda like when people say they're "taping" something when they record it.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Post boil hopping
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2021, 07:08:11 am »
Frankly, I always thought the term “knockout” was slang….
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