[Fire Rooster]

I'm new to all this.
For the next batch I have thoughts of pitching 1 or 2 packs of Wyeast 1469.
Using open fermentation to skim off the foam (if it's there) for later use.

How large should the glass container be to have a large healthy pitch for a 5 gallon 4.5% abv batch ?
32 oz mason jar ?
How long would it remain viable in the refrigerator ?

Thanks
 

[Joshua Hughes]

Didn't get that foam monster as seen in Timothy Taylor video, or from others.
Fermentation was normal like any others brewed, and started within 24 hours.
Should two smack packs been pitched ?

Was your fermentation open or otherwise well aerated?  I got an absolutely huge head when I did an open ferment with Ringwood in a square fermenter, and none of the dreaded diacetyl.  These yeasts love oxygen.

No open fermentation, aerated the best I could.
Square fermenter ?
How long do you leave the fermenter open ?

I use a 5.3 gal speidel fermenter, I wonder if I could just leave the stopper off for a couple of days.
Next brew planned is with 1469 also.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=35050&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoY-PBhCNARIsABcz772ptsnuq5vQ5hEzqd19f4ehCLze81a_Uw9aCtPyH24dBFWlF8AymH0aArhDEALw_wcB

It was a vittles vault I originally bought for Belgian beers.  I left the top off for 4 days I think, and just put a grain bag mesh over the top to keep anything big out.

I'm not saying this is necessary but they often aerate DURING fermentation with these yeasts.  If you aren't pleased with the beer, it's something to consider.

I'm game. Next batch I'll leave the top off for a couple of days, and cover with mesh bag.
How did you aerate ?
Next batch is almost identical to previous one, let's see what happens.
Thanks, never considered doing this.

I used a sanitized spoon and stirred a few times the first few days.

[hopfenundmalz]

Didn't get that foam monster as seen in Timothy Taylor video, or from others.
Fermentation was normal like any others brewed, and started within 24 hours.
Should two smack packs been pitched ?

Was your fermentation open or otherwise well aerated?  I got an absolutely huge head when I did an open ferment with Ringwood in a square fermenter, and none of the dreaded diacetyl.  These yeasts love oxygen.

No open fermentation, aerated the best I could.
Square fermenter ?
How long do you leave the fermenter open ?

I use a 5.3 gal speidel fermenter, I wonder if I could just leave the stopper off for a couple of days.
Next brew planned is with 1469 also.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=35050&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoY-PBhCNARIsABcz772ptsnuq5vQ5hEzqd19f4ehCLze81a_Uw9aCtPyH24dBFWlF8AymH0aArhDEALw_wcB

It was a vittles vault I originally bought for Belgian beers.  I left the top off for 4 days I think, and just put a grain bag mesh over the top to keep anything big out.

I'm not saying this is necessary but they often aerate DURING fermentation with these yeasts.  If you aren't pleased with the beer, it's something to consider.

I'm game. Next batch I'll leave the top off for a couple of days, and cover with mesh bag.
How did you aerate ?
Next batch is almost identical to previous one, let's see what happens.
Thanks, never considered doing this.

I used a sanitized spoon and stirred a few times the first few days.

One way to areate is to rack the beer to a second fermenter, and let it splash a little.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2008/09/24/a-tasty-drop-the-history-of-an-almost-vanished-fermentation-system/

[fredthecat]

Didn't get that foam monster as seen in Timothy Taylor video, or from others.
Fermentation was normal like any others brewed, and started within 24 hours.
Should two smack packs been pitched ?

Was your fermentation open or otherwise well aerated?  I got an absolutely huge head when I did an open ferment with Ringwood in a square fermenter, and none of the dreaded diacetyl.  These yeasts love oxygen.

No open fermentation, aerated the best I could.
Square fermenter ?
How long do you leave the fermenter open ?

I use a 5.3 gal speidel fermenter, I wonder if I could just leave the stopper off for a couple of days.
Next brew planned is with 1469 also.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=35050&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoY-PBhCNARIsABcz772ptsnuq5vQ5hEzqd19f4ehCLze81a_Uw9aCtPyH24dBFWlF8AymH0aArhDEALw_wcB

It was a vittles vault I originally bought for Belgian beers.  I left the top off for 4 days I think, and just put a grain bag mesh over the top to keep anything big out.

I'm not saying this is necessary but they often aerate DURING fermentation with these yeasts.  If you aren't pleased with the beer, it's something to consider.

I'm game. Next batch I'll leave the top off for a couple of days, and cover with mesh bag.
How did you aerate ?
Next batch is almost identical to previous one, let's see what happens.
Thanks, never considered doing this.

I used a sanitized spoon and stirred a few times the first few days.

One way to areate is to rack the beer to a second fermenter, and let it splash a little.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2008/09/24/a-tasty-drop-the-history-of-an-almost-vanished-fermentation-system/

this one actually makes the most sense, but that would be one crazy transfer with highly active wort (say 2nd or 3rd day into activity) into another container. but again, this really could be a good solution for high o2 requirement yeasts other than direct o2 application

[Fire Rooster]

Didn't get that foam monster as seen in Timothy Taylor video, or from others.
Fermentation was normal like any others brewed, and started within 24 hours.
Should two smack packs been pitched ?

Was your fermentation open or otherwise well aerated?  I got an absolutely huge head when I did an open ferment with Ringwood in a square fermenter, and none of the dreaded diacetyl.  These yeasts love oxygen.

No open fermentation, aerated the best I could.
Square fermenter ?
How long do you leave the fermenter open ?

I use a 5.3 gal speidel fermenter, I wonder if I could just leave the stopper off for a couple of days.
Next brew planned is with 1469 also.

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=35050&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoY-PBhCNARIsABcz772ptsnuq5vQ5hEzqd19f4ehCLze81a_Uw9aCtPyH24dBFWlF8AymH0aArhDEALw_wcB

It was a vittles vault I originally bought for Belgian beers.  I left the top off for 4 days I think, and just put a grain bag mesh over the top to keep anything big out.

I'm not saying this is necessary but they often aerate DURING fermentation with these yeasts.  If you aren't pleased with the beer, it's something to consider.

I'm game. Next batch I'll leave the top off for a couple of days, and cover with mesh bag.
How did you aerate ?
Next batch is almost identical to previous one, let's see what happens.
Thanks, never considered doing this.

I used a sanitized spoon and stirred a few times the first few days.

One way to areate is to rack the beer to a second fermenter, and let it splash a little.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2008/09/24/a-tasty-drop-the-history-of-an-almost-vanished-fermentation-system/

A hard read, but opened my eyes, and to review my process.
A 7.9g non-spigot brew bucket would work for me.
Thanks !

[hopfenundmalz]

There are other articles for "Double Drop Fermentation".

Some say to do this at 16-18 hours in. Some yeast may require more O2 later.

Fullers had parts of the old system on display on the tour.

[erockrph]

FYI,  1469 does not require as much O2 as some other Yorkshire yeast strains. I ferment it in a sealed keg without adding any extra oxygen and I get healthy ferments and good ester production. That said, I'm interested in seeing how it does in an open ferment.

[fredthecat]

is wyeast 1469 POF+?

i am finally about to get it

[BrewBama]

…What is negatively affecting my perception of this batch is the batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner I brewed before it.  I did not expect much because I used S-23, a yeast with which many people have had trouble.  However, it produced the best batch of beer I have ever made.  Bohemian Pilsner is such a challenging style to make.  Everything is in delicate balance.  I found that W-34/70 and Diamond were not remotely as good as S-23 when it comes to allowing delicate flavors to shine.  The beer has that herbal, slightly fruity, fresh mown hay thing about it that one finds in Pilsner Urquell (PU). …

Rereading this thread and found Mark’s statement to be very interesting. I believe Tommy also found S-23 to be a good candidate for certain lagers.

…It could be improved by decoction mashing. PU has caramelization that is only possible via decoction mashing.  It is subtle, but it is there.

 While it may be true PU uses a decoction, I believe they also use C malt for a background caramel flavor according to this: http://allaboutbeer.com/secrets-czech-brewing . I’ve not seen it myself, maybe some who’ve toured the brewery can confirm.

[denny]

…What is negatively affecting my perception of this batch is the batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner I brewed before it.  I did not expect much because I used S-23, a yeast with which many people have had trouble.  However, it produced the best batch of beer I have ever made.  Bohemian Pilsner is such a challenging style to make.  Everything is in delicate balance.  I found that W-34/70 and Diamond were not remotely as good as S-23 when it comes to allowing delicate flavors to shine.  The beer has that herbal, slightly fruity, fresh mown hay thing about it that one finds in Pilsner Urquell (PU). …

Rereading this thread and found Mark’s statement to be very interesting. I believe Tommy also found S-23 to be a good candidate for certain lagers.

…It could be improved by decoction mashing. PU has caramelization that is only possible via decoction mashing.  It is subtle, but it is there.

 While it may be true PU uses a decoction, I believe they also use C malt for a background caramel flavor according to this: http://allaboutbeer.com/secrets-czech-brewing . I’ve not seen it myself, maybe some who’ve toured the brewery can confirm.

Annie would know.

[lupulus]

Many forum members have lauded this yeast culture, but few have lauded the fact that it is a true top-cropping culture.  If one watches the following YouTube, one learns that the standard practice at Timothy Taylor is to top crop.  This fraction of the Timothy Taylor video explains their fermentation process: https://youtu.be/4Cak4stt9v4?t=620.

With that said, here is what a Wyeast 1469 ferment looks like after the brown head has been skimmed and the second head has been allowed to form:



Here's what the head looks like top-cropped (there is still quite a bit of CO₂ in the crop):



Here's a closeup photo:



The beauty of top-cropped yeast is that it is naturally purified, which is due to the fact that non-domesticated yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top.  That is why top-cropping breweries can repitch hundreds to thousands of times.  In a typical American craft brewery, bottom settling yeast cultures are preferred.  That is a practical problem for amateur brewers because one cannot place selective pressure on the bottom-settling culture by cropping from the top. Yet, there is the constant threat from native microflora that sets an upper bound on the number of times a culture can be repitched without going back to a seed culture.

In a commercial brewery, the real threat to repitching is the cylindroconical fermentation vessel.  Please do not get me wrong.  Conicals were a major advancement in brewing technology from a production point of view.  It is just that the hydrostatic pressure placed on a culture in the cone of a sizable conical more easily results in yeast cell oxidation via reactive oxygen species (ROS). ROS causes respiratory petites to be formed.  That is not a problem for home brewers because the hydrostatic pressure to which yeast is subjected is trivial.  That means little in the way of petite mutation at the home level.  The bigger threat from home-based breweries is house is house microflora.  What I have learned over the last 29 years is that if one manages a spot in one's home where fermentation takes place regularly well, the dominant microflora in that area tends to become domesticated brewing yeast.  Cleaning and sanitizing usually results in native flora numbers being reduced to a point where they are not a threat.  In essence, the longer a brewery remains in existence, the cleaner its products.  By clean, I do not mean squeaky clean.  I mean free of weird aromas and flavors, even if they are barely at threshold level.

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

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[erockrph]

is wyeast 1469 POF+?

i am finally about to get it

I haven't seen any reference specifically calling it out as POF-, but I've never detected any phenolic flavors when using this strain.

[fredthecat]

…It could be improved by decoction mashing. PU has caramelization that is only possible via decoction mashing.  It is subtle, but it is there.

 While it may be true PU uses a decoction, I believe they also use C malt for a background caramel flavor according to this: http://allaboutbeer.com/secrets-czech-brewing . I’ve not seen it myself, maybe some who’ve toured the brewery can confirm.

lololol decoction = caramelization. contentious and i believe incorrect by definition as maltose caramelizes at 180C, sucrose at 160C (both far above boiling) and you get the idea. see traquair ale discussions for more on wort "caramelization"

i want to believe decoction does something, but considering the work and time involved and that i and others havent noticed a detectable, let alone obvious quality it produces i dont plan to do it again.

I haven't seen any reference specifically calling it out as POF-, but I've never detected any phenolic flavors when using this strain.

thank you, that seems to be what people say, just wondering what to expect. ive only had timmy taylors that uses it. doing a stout and then a strong mild with it i hope.

[Richard]

...

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

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Mark (Saccharomyces) has been absent from this forum for many months. I don't think you are going to get an answer from him.

[lupulus]

...

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Mark (Saccharomyces) has been absent from this forum for many months. I don't think you are going to get an answer from him.

Thanks Richard!
I have some references on Petit Mutants, notably one from Gibson on petite mutants and oxidative stress, but wondered if there were references I didn't know about.
Also, the point Mark makes about CO2 pressure may be relevant for those fermenting under pressure; I haven't seen a study on petite mutants and CO2 pressure.
Cheers!

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