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Author Topic: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion  (Read 12430 times)

Offline denny

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2022, 03:17:28 pm »
I am certain that Sierra Nevada and Whitestephan do certain processes to extend the beer shelf life.

When you as a home brewer start shipping your beer across the country/ overseas in hot shipping containers then you can start fallowing their processes.

Till then it is just placebo effect. You feel good about what you are doing.

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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2022, 05:18:51 pm »
I understand that this presentation was more than a lot homebrewers are willing to swallow. These techniques and ideas are beyond some homebrewers, but not everyone. If you don’t think it’s important, that’s perfectly fine. But there seems to be an undercurrent of dissuasion to pursue a better quality beer, in this case light German lagers. These beers are very difficult to execute, so any insight is very helpful to me. If you are happy with your beer, great. If you want to make brewing fun, well who doesn’t? But not everybody enjoys the idea of making beer good enough. I for one want to strive to make a beer every bit as good as brewers in Germany. It’s an impossible target, but I hope to attain that goal.

That being said, I noticed pressure fermentation was mentioned. I’ve been pressure fermenting for a couple of years with great results. I mostly use Weinhenstephan yeast and it performs beautifully under pressure at 48F. The fact that Weinhenstephan acknowledges that they utilize pressure during lager fermentations leads me to believe I’m on the right path.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 05:23:20 pm by HighVoltageMan! »

Offline Bilsch

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2022, 05:57:58 pm »
But I guess 2017 is already 5 years ago, and I'm not in the mix enough to know if he's said anything different recently.

I'd say his opinion on this matter is drifting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIhvVnYQ0f4
topic in question- 00:58:45

What I'm hearing is if your goal is the best beer possible and you have your cold side down.. next stop is limiting HSA.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 06:02:05 pm by Bilsch »

Offline RC

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2022, 06:03:39 pm »
But there seems to be an undercurrent of dissuasion to pursue a better quality beer, in this case light German lagers. 

These LODO posts are predicated on the assumption that LODO-brewed lagers taste far superior to non-LODO-brewed lagers, and are much closer to authentic "German-ness". This may very well be true. Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to verify this assumption for myself. No one in my circle of homebrewing friends is a LODO brewer. Until I can taste LODO beers for myself, it's hard for me to accept such claims automatically--even if there is sound science behind them. I have tasted some truly exceptional, authentic German-style lagers that were definitely not LODO-brewed, both commercial ones and homebrewed ones. And I have had plenty of "reality astonishes theory" moments where what happened in my garage did not strictly conform to lab science published in the literature.

I am not denying any benefits of LODO brewing or that HSA is real yada yada yada. But I am not going to make relatively large and time-consuming changes to my processes until I get a sense of the ROI. Tasting LODO-homebrewed beer would give me this. Until I can taste and evaluate LODO beers for myself, and subsequently be convinced of how superior they are, it's moot for me to think about.

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2022, 07:20:26 pm »

I'd say his opinion on this matter is drifting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIhvVnYQ0f4
topic in question- 00:58:45

What I'm hearing is if your goal is the best beer possible and you have your cold side down.. next stop is limiting HSA.

I am wondering if we listened to the same video you posted?  I heard him say he would put his investment in low O2 packaging and keeping beer cold before he would brewhaus oxidation. The fact that there’s yeast in the beer protects it from aging characteristics and O2 pickup. Pretty much the same consistent message he’s been delivering over the last few years as far as I know. Maybe I missed something.

Offline Bilsch

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2022, 08:10:54 pm »
I am wondering if we listened to the same video you posted?  I heard him say he would put his investment in low O2 packaging and keeping beer cold before he would brewhaus oxidation. The fact that there’s yeast in the beer protects it from aging characteristics and O2 pickup. Pretty much the same consistent message he’s been delivering over the last few years as far as I know. Maybe I missed something.

Maybe not. This is what he said exactly, with the possible exception of one or two stutters:

"Hot side aeration.. like I say, I’m not saying that air pick up in a brewhouse is not significant, I’m not saying that it’s insignificant, but you know that all comes before the yeast, and yeast is a great friend to the brewer because not only can yeast mop up oxygen it can also mop up a lot of the carbonyl compounds which contribute to aging. So if your yeast is healthy and your yeast is being looked after and reused properly it can do an awful lot of good. And you know I’m associated with Sierra Nevada these days and you know, natural conditioning, having yeast at the bottom of the bottle is a very valuable thing to have there because it’s mopping up oxygen it’s mopping up age character. So um, so I, I agree with what Jens has said, there is a lot, there is very complicated thing, but, but if I was to invest, let’s put it this way Doug, if I was to invest my money in best possible packaging equipment and refrigerated distribution, I would spend my money there before I would spend it on minimizing oxygen uptake in the brewhouse."

So lets recap: HSA is not insignificant. Yeast can help. Fix your cold side before wasting money on the hot.

Since my cold side is stellar (keg spunding in ferment CO2 purged kegs with all buna-n seals, stored cold) and my distribution channels are short (ferment refrigerator located 6 inches from lagering chamber that is a further 12 inches from the serving fridge) I feel pretty good that I have satisfied his conditions and that moving toward eliminating or reducing the hot side oxygen was the correct next step.

Offline BrewBama

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Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2022, 09:36:53 pm »
spot on.  Which is pretty much what I said…

His statement (my emphasis):


"Hot side aeration.. like I say, I’m not saying that air pick up in a brewhouse is not significant, I’m not saying that it’s insignificant, but you know that all comes before the yeast, and yeast is a great friend to the brewer because not only can yeast mop up oxygen it can also mop up a lot of the carbonyl compounds which contribute to aging. So if your yeast is healthy and your yeast is being looked after and reused properly it can do an awful lot of good. And you know I’m associated with Sierra Nevada these days and you know, natural conditioning, having yeast at the bottom of the bottle is a very valuable thing to have there because it’s mopping up oxygen it’s mopping up age character. So um, so I, I agree with what Jens has said, there is a lot, there is very complicated thing, but, but if I was to invest, let’s put it this way Doug, if I was to invest my money in best possible packaging equipment and refrigerated distribution, I would spend my money there before I would spend it on minimizing oxygen uptake in the brewhouse."


My statements:

…  I heard him say he would put his investment in low O2 packaging and keeping beer cold before he would brewhaus oxidation. The fact that there’s yeast in the beer protects it from aging characteristics and O2 pickup. …

I don’t think the question is about wether or not HSA exists. I don’t think we have anti-science types here. I believe it’s a question of choice. What does each individual brewer choose to do about it.



To each his own.

He acknowledged brewhaus O2, choose to address it with low O2 packaging, referment in packaging, and cold storage.

Again, I see no inconsistency in his message:

…  Pretty much the same consistent message he’s been delivering over the last few years as far as I know. …
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 12:54:13 pm by BrewBama »

Offline lupulus

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2022, 06:57:50 am »
A few random points that may explain apparent inconsistencies.

1. Bamforth never homebrewed. His Carling system had 20x less exposure to oxygen (square-cube law); brewed with deareated water and underlet.

2. Bamforth now works at a LODO brewery and QCs LODO beer and seems happy.

3. Great LODO pale lager beers don't advance in major competitions because they all have sulfur (SO2). An Augustiner Helles at the brewery won't score above 30-35 in a major competition. BJCP only added sulfur to the guidelines in 2021 (it has been in European guidelines forever).
3b. What BJCP describes as the standard Helles is a beer brewed 6 months ago and shipped across the Atlantic.

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.


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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2022, 07:01:47 am »
A few random points that may explain apparent inconsistencies.

1. Bamforth never homebrewed. His Carling system had 20x less exposure to oxygen (square-cube law); brewed with deareated water and underlet.

2. Bamforth now works at a LODO brewery and QCs LODO beer and seems happy.

3. Great LODO pale lager beers don't advance in major competitions because they all have sulfur (SO2). An Augustiner Helles at the brewery won't score above 30-35 in a major competition. BJCP only added sulfur to the guidelines in 2021 (it has been in European guidelines forever).
3b. What BJCP describes as the standard Helles is a beer brewed 6 months ago and shipped across the Atlantic.

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.


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Offline lupulus

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2022, 07:49:11 am »
A few random points that may explain apparent inconsistencies.

1. Bamforth never homebrewed. His Carling system had 20x less exposure to oxygen (square-cube law); brewed with deareated water and underlet.

2. Bamforth now works at a LODO brewery and QCs LODO beer and seems happy.

3. Great LODO pale lager beers don't advance in major competitions because they all have sulfur (SO2). An Augustiner Helles at the brewery won't score above 30-35 in a major competition. BJCP only added sulfur to the guidelines in 2021 (it has been in European guidelines forever).
3b. What BJCP describes as the standard Helles is a beer brewed 6 months ago and shipped across the Atlantic.

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.


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Bamforth worked at Bass when it was still Bass.
Indeed. Carling was the lager he was brewing. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

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Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2022, 08:05:58 am »
But there seems to be an undercurrent of dissuasion to pursue a better quality beer, in this case light German lagers. 

These LODO posts are predicated on the assumption that LODO-brewed lagers taste far superior to non-LODO-brewed lagers, and are much closer to authentic "German-ness". This may very well be true. Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to verify this assumption for myself. No one in my circle of homebrewing friends is a LODO brewer. Until I can taste LODO beers for myself, it's hard for me to accept such claims automatically--even if there is sound science behind them. I have tasted some truly exceptional, authentic German-style lagers that were definitely not LODO-brewed, both commercial ones and homebrewed ones. And I have had plenty of "reality astonishes theory" moments where what happened in my garage did not strictly conform to lab science published in the literature.

I am not denying any benefits of LODO brewing or that HSA is real yada yada yada. But I am not going to make relatively large and time-consuming changes to my processes until I get a sense of the ROI. Tasting LODO-homebrewed beer would give me this. Until I can taste and evaluate LODO beers for myself, and subsequently be convinced of how superior they are, it's moot for me to think about.
I'm not a strict follower of LODO. I have tasted beer made by one of it's advocates and found it interesting. To me it tasted richer than I was used to, but had a component of corn. Not DMS, more like the cereal from years ago "Old Fashion Corn Flakes". Interesting Bamforth describes malt flavors as having a touch of corn that is not DMS. To me it has a Frito's like flavor. I have tasted it in fresh German beer. I 'm really not a fan of it, so I changed the malt bill to reduce this flavor, but that's just me.

Never the less, I've learned a lot about mashing beyond the basics because of it. I still use some methods, but others are not practical with my current setup. The biggest thing it did for me was to make me aware of the damaging effects of cold side aeration. This is a huge problem for any brewer, whether they believe or not. I started fermenting in kegs and started doing completely closed transfers to avoid oxygen. It wasn't until I started fermenting under pressure and spunding that I saw some significant gains in the quality of my beer. My scores in homebrew competitions reflected the improvement.

I think the LODO movement is a good thing, it led me down paths I normally wouldn't have gone. I want to learn and if possible teach others that are interested. I think it would be good to have an attitude of "Let the man speak". If it's true, we all benefit. If it's false, it will eventually be exposed. So far, much of it has been true.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 08:08:25 am by HighVoltageMan! »

Offline HighVoltageMan!

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2022, 08:27:04 am »


3. Great LODO pale lager beers don't advance in major competitions because they all have sulfur (SO2). An Augustiner Helles at the brewery won't score above 30-35 in a major competition. BJCP only added sulfur to the guidelines in 2021 (it has been in European guidelines forever).
3b. What BJCP describes as the standard Helles is a beer brewed 6 months ago and shipped across the Atlantic.


I disagree with this notion. I have been advanced and medaled at a national level with LODO methods. Sulfur compounds are part of nearly every lager fermentation. It varies each yeast strain, but it's rare not to smell some sort of sulfur coming from the fermenter a few days into fermentation. I choose yeasts that reduce this sulfur, such as 34/70 and 2124. It's still there, but aging can reduce or eliminate it from the beer. If there is sulfur in a beer it should be very low, if at all. It's possible to use LODO and still produce low levels of sulfur.

I had a judge comment on this with an American Lager that won a gold. He mentioned "a low level of sulfur adds complexity to the malt character". It was very low, but it was there. I didn't use LODO on that beer. Sulfur can add to the enjoyment of a beer as long as it's restrained.

Offline Richard

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2022, 09:16:33 am »
...

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.

I am not a big fan of Helles of any kind and am not interested in brewing one. This single-minded focus on one type of beer is something that turns me off in LODO discussions.
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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2022, 09:24:50 am »

I disagree with this notion. I have been advanced and medaled at a national level with LODO methods. Sulfur compounds are part of nearly every lager fermentation. It varies each yeast strain, but it's rare not to smell some sort of sulfur coming from the fermenter a few days into fermentation. I choose yeasts that reduce this sulfur, such as 34/70 and 2124. It's still there, but aging can reduce or eliminate it from the beer. If there is sulfur in a beer it should be very low, if at all. It's possible to use LODO and still produce low levels of sulfur.

I had a judge comment on this with an American Lager that won a gold. He mentioned "a low level of sulfur adds complexity to the malt character". It was very low, but it was there. I didn't use LODO on that beer. Sulfur can add to the enjoyment of a beer as long as it's restrained.

I agree with this, and a lot of it depends on your fermentation. That's one reason that, to me, LODO is a tool that I use in certain ways but is not the be all/end all of 'lager flavor'.  Beyond that, HSA is only one part of reducing oxygen ingress, as mentioned above.

Offline lupulus

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Re: Great Hot Side Aereation discussion
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2022, 10:27:45 am »
...

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.

I am not a big fan of Helles of any kind and am not interested in brewing one. This single-minded focus on one type of beer is something that turns me off in LODO discussions.
Respectfully, your comment is like going into the Saison thread and stating that you are turned off by pepper-phenolics. Like going into the hazy IPA thread to say that you only like clear beers. The talk was about pale lagers. This thread was about pale lagers.  All the evidence is collected in pale lagers. 
Does it apply to lambics or gueuze? Probably not. Does cold side oxidation matter for these beers? Oxidation is a feature of these beers.
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