Author Topic: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?  (Read 5176 times)

Online Kaiser

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 12:59:30 PM »
Note the asterisk by the brown, dextrin, and light crystal, to which he states: "The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

It has been a long time that I read his page or book and wasn’t aware that he already has this info there. If that is true, and it likely is, shouldn’t we then advise against steeping light specialty malts since they release starches into the wort that cannot be converted? This also tells me that I should test light and dark crystal malt.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Kai



Offline ndcube

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 01:06:51 PM »
Note the asterisk by the brown, dextrin, and light crystal, to which he states: "The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

It has been a long time that I read his page or book and wasn’t aware that he already has this info there. If that is true, and it likely is, shouldn’t we then advise against steeping light specialty malts since they release starches into the wort that cannot be converted? This also tells me that I should test light and dark crystal malt.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Kai




Are starches able to be extracted the same as sugars?  If not, is this why efficiency is bad when you don't get full conversion?

Offline babalu87

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 01:15:41 PM »
Kai, my only question is whether or not you will perform this experiment while sitting in an arm-chair?

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Offline davidw

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2009, 01:26:15 PM »
You bet, Kai.

And, it has always been my understanding that carapils should be mashed to prevent haze. Although, I don't recall it ever being inferred as a necessity with other light crystal malts. Would be interesting to have more data on this topic. 

Offline a10t2

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2009, 02:03:18 PM »
Is extraction the ability to get sugars out of the husk? Or what?

Pretty much. Maybe say "stuff" instead of "sugars". Brewers tend to use "sugar" to mean anything up to tri- or maybe tetra-saccharides. Things that are a little bigger than that are called "dextrins" and bigger than that are "starches". Extraction just refers to the mechanical process of dissolving all those various carbohydrates into water. Once they're in solution enzymes can start to break starches down into sugars, which is what conversion is.
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Offline tom

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 08:07:35 PM »
it has always been my understanding that carapils should be mashed to prevent haze. Although, I don't recall it ever being inferred as a necessity with other light crystal malts. Would be interesting to have more data on this topic. 
Mine too.
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Offline MDixon

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2009, 12:44:31 PM »
I've not read the referenced document by Bamforth and Lewis so I cannot comment on exactly what it says and the context. CaraPils would not be a great trial since it would require a mash to convert the starches to sugars if what I was long ago told by Briess is correct - that CP requires mashing. Now since that time several have stated, including Briess employees, that CP does not require mashing.

So let's change the experiment to Crystal 20 or something else besides CaraPils.

I did quite a bit of research on the topic in 2007 and here was my conclusion back then with regard to unconverted starches in Specialty Grains:
Quote
The lighter the crystal the more uncoverted starches and the more benefit to mashing the grain. The higher the lovibond the less benefit to mashing and the grain can simply be steeped.

Best I can tell the sugars that come from steeping are unfermentable and would not be fermentable after mashing. That would indicate that the ONLY fermentable sugars from Crystal malt come from the unconverted starches. However I can find no reference at all to my new theory...

Take this reference (Impact of Dark Specialty Malts on Extract Composition and Wort Fermentation)
http://www.scientificsocieties.org/jib/papers/2005/G-2005-0330-275.pdf
mix it with DeClerk and Miller and come up with your own conclusion ;)
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Offline nyakavt

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2009, 09:06:35 AM »
Kai, my only question is whether or not you will perform this experiment while sitting in an arm-chair?

Haha, nice!

Online Kaiser

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2009, 09:20:21 AM »
Take this reference (Impact of Dark Specialty Malts on Extract Composition and Wort Fermentation)
http://www.scientificsocieties.org/jib/papers/2005/G-2005-0330-275.pdf

That's a nice paper. Thanks for sharing.

Kai

Offline euge

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Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2010, 01:14:35 AM »
After reading all of this...  ow my head hurts...why the Pale malt again?

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