[BrewBama]

Williams Brewing has (or used to have) it.

[Village Taphouse]

Williams Brewing has (or used to have) it.

I think that's the last place I bought it from.  I just did a search and found some 10ml syringes of Sinamar but that's weird.  Honestly I'll make it myself if I need more. 

[MDL]

Could high gravity brewing have some impact on final color?

[Village Taphouse]

Could high gravity brewing have some impact on final color?

Because they brew it strong and then dilute it with water afterwards?  I have heard about that but I don't really know if that would impact color or not.  Certainly seems possible. 

[MDL]

Yes. Was thinking maybe there’s more color pickup from boiling higher gravity wort that impacts final product even after dilution?

[Village Taphouse]

Yes. Was thinking maybe there’s more color pickup from boiling higher gravity wort that impacts final product even after dilution?

Seems reasonable.  Tell you what, this weekend I'll brew 500 gallons of a light lager and then dilute it to 1000 gallons and check the color.  I'll report back.   

[Skeeter686]

If big commercial breweries strive for absolute consistency in everything, including color, they may standardize on a darker color that they can easily adjust every batch to.  It's probably a lot easier to add colorants to produce a darker color than it is to "bleach" your product to adjust the color to a lighter shade. 

Sent from my SM-T870 using Tapatalk

[scrap iron]

I too have been trying lately to adjust the color in my beers. I have a Dunkel that I added 1% Carafa special 1 to the main mash. I got the color I was wanting but am noticing a small chocolate contribution. The thing is I like it but will add it at the end of the mash next time to compare. I made a Vienna Lager a while back and added 25% Avangard dark Munich at 15° L for color adjustment. It added color but also an almost light fruit flavor of some type. I decided to only use it in dark beers in the future. I bought some Mid night wheat to try in place of the Carafa 1 and may try homemade Sinamar trick.
I am thinking I might quit chasing color and just brew to taste.
             

[Village Taphouse]

I too have been trying lately to adjust the color in my beers. I have a Dunkel that I added 1% Carafa special 1 to the main mash. I got the color I was wanting but am noticing a small chocolate contribution. The thing is I like it but will add it at the end of the mash next time to compare. I made a Vienna Lager a while back and added 25% Avangard dark Munich at 15° L for color adjustment. It added color but also an almost light fruit flavor of some type. I decided to only use it in dark beers in the future. I bought some Mid night wheat to try in place of the Carafa 1 and may try homemade Sinamar trick.
I am thinking I might quit chasing color and just brew to taste.
           

I notice that carafa products will contribute flavor and that flavor can be stronger when the beer is fresher and it will become a part of the overall flavor of the beer after the beer has conditioned a bit.  But I *do* like the flavor contribution of carafa.  Midnight Wheat seems to have less flavor to me.  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  If I have 4 ounces of a dark crystal do I mash it or hold it until later?  For now I mash it.  The only thing I hold back is something like carafa or MW.  I hear you on the concept of chasing color.  I don't necessarily recommend it.  But between the great malts we have now and some LO steps which have made my wort more pale, a beer that I might be trying to create that's in the spirit of a commercial group of beers (say, pale Mexican lagers like Modelo Especial, etc), has come out MUCH, MUCH more pale that the beer I'm trying to reproduce which just makes me wonder about how the brewer got the color.  I was at my dad's house once and he offered me a beer (Busch Light...  ) and it had to be the most pale beer I have ever seen.  Like one tick north of water. 

[hopfenundmalz]

I too have been trying lately to adjust the color in my beers. I have a Dunkel that I added 1% Carafa special 1 to the main mash. I got the color I was wanting but am noticing a small chocolate contribution. The thing is I like it but will add it at the end of the mash next time to compare. I made a Vienna Lager a while back and added 25% Avangard dark Munich at 15° L for color adjustment. It added color but also an almost light fruit flavor of some type. I decided to only use it in dark beers in the future. I bought some Mid night wheat to try in place of the Carafa 1 and may try homemade Sinamar trick.
I am thinking I might quit chasing color and just brew to taste.
           

I notice that carafa products will contribute flavor and that flavor can be stronger when the beer is fresher and it will become a part of the overall flavor of the beer after the beer has conditioned a bit.  But I *do* like the flavor contribution of carafa.  Midnight Wheat seems to have less flavor to me.  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  If I have 4 ounces of a dark crystal do I mash it or hold it until later?  For now I mash it.  The only thing I hold back is something like carafa or MW.  I hear you on the concept of chasing color.  I don't necessarily recommend it.  But between the great malts we have now and some LO steps which have made my wort more pale, a beer that I might be trying to create that's in the spirit of a commercial group of beers (say, pale Mexican lagers like Modelo Especial, etc), has come out MUCH, MUCH more pale that the beer I'm trying to reproduce which just makes me wonder about how the brewer got the color.  I was at my dad's house once and he offered me a beer (Busch Light...  ) and it had to be the most pale beer I have ever seen.  Like one tick north of water. 

Wheat has no husk, so Midnight wheat has less of the acrid flavors.

[Village Taphouse]

I too have been trying lately to adjust the color in my beers. I have a Dunkel that I added 1% Carafa special 1 to the main mash. I got the color I was wanting but am noticing a small chocolate contribution. The thing is I like it but will add it at the end of the mash next time to compare. I made a Vienna Lager a while back and added 25% Avangard dark Munich at 15° L for color adjustment. It added color but also an almost light fruit flavor of some type. I decided to only use it in dark beers in the future. I bought some Mid night wheat to try in place of the Carafa 1 and may try homemade Sinamar trick.
I am thinking I might quit chasing color and just brew to taste.
           

I notice that carafa products will contribute flavor and that flavor can be stronger when the beer is fresher and it will become a part of the overall flavor of the beer after the beer has conditioned a bit.  But I *do* like the flavor contribution of carafa.  Midnight Wheat seems to have less flavor to me.  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  If I have 4 ounces of a dark crystal do I mash it or hold it until later?  For now I mash it.  The only thing I hold back is something like carafa or MW.  I hear you on the concept of chasing color.  I don't necessarily recommend it.  But between the great malts we have now and some LO steps which have made my wort more pale, a beer that I might be trying to create that's in the spirit of a commercial group of beers (say, pale Mexican lagers like Modelo Especial, etc), has come out MUCH, MUCH more pale that the beer I'm trying to reproduce which just makes me wonder about how the brewer got the color.  I was at my dad's house once and he offered me a beer (Busch Light...  ) and it had to be the most pale beer I have ever seen.  Like one tick north of water. 

Wheat has no husk, so Midnight wheat has less of the acrid flavors.

Right.  Some of the carafa products are also dehusked, right?

[BrewBama]

…  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  …

I am sure there’s a much more technical explanation but this is my simplistic version. Here’s how I try to think about it: The mash is a ‘stew’ used to convert starch to sugar. My No 1 goal in the mash is pH and temperature control to aid conversion.

Note: I hot steep dark grains once the main mash conversion is complete. (Many confuse hot steep with cold steep which I do not do.)

Dark, roasted grains and malts—such as chocolate malt, black patent malt, and roasted barley—are kilned at high temp. The high temp destroys the enzymes and burns the starches. So, even if included in the mash they aren’t really being mashed—there is nothing left to convert. The burnt starches and husks can add an astringency plus — and this is the reason I hold them until Vorlauf — they screw with pH.

Crystal malts have been ‘stewed’ prior to kilning so they’ve already been mashed in their husks. The starches have been converted to sugar ‘crystals’.   So, they don’t need to be mashed either. …but the lighter colors probably wouldn’t hurt pH. I routinely hold all C-Malts back but anything over ~80° definitely gets held back.

However, ‘character malts’ like Oats, Wheat, Rye, Amber, Brown, Victory, Melanoidin, Biscuit do need to have their starches converted. So, they’re added to the main mash.

Once conversion is complete and I am no longer concerned about pH, I increase to mash out temp and add dark grains for 30 min.

This way, every mash is the same: base malts plus character. It simplifies mash pH control.

[hopfenundmalz]

I too have been trying lately to adjust the color in my beers. I have a Dunkel that I added 1% Carafa special 1 to the main mash. I got the color I was wanting but am noticing a small chocolate contribution. The thing is I like it but will add it at the end of the mash next time to compare. I made a Vienna Lager a while back and added 25% Avangard dark Munich at 15° L for color adjustment. It added color but also an almost light fruit flavor of some type. I decided to only use it in dark beers in the future. I bought some Mid night wheat to try in place of the Carafa 1 and may try homemade Sinamar trick.
I am thinking I might quit chasing color and just brew to taste.
           

I notice that carafa products will contribute flavor and that flavor can be stronger when the beer is fresher and it will become a part of the overall flavor of the beer after the beer has conditioned a bit.  But I *do* like the flavor contribution of carafa.  Midnight Wheat seems to have less flavor to me.  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  If I have 4 ounces of a dark crystal do I mash it or hold it until later?  For now I mash it.  The only thing I hold back is something like carafa or MW.  I hear you on the concept of chasing color.  I don't necessarily recommend it.  But between the great malts we have now and some LO steps which have made my wort more pale, a beer that I might be trying to create that's in the spirit of a commercial group of beers (say, pale Mexican lagers like Modelo Especial, etc), has come out MUCH, MUCH more pale that the beer I'm trying to reproduce which just makes me wonder about how the brewer got the color.  I was at my dad's house once and he offered me a beer (Busch Light...  ) and it had to be the most pale beer I have ever seen.  Like one tick north of water. 

Wheat has no husk, so Midnight wheat has less of the acrid flavors.

Right.  Some of the carafa products are also dehusked, right?

Not all of the husk is removed, about 40% remains.

[Megary]

…  I also have not worked out which malts to hold back until the end of the mash and maybe BrewBama will answer that.  …

I am sure there’s a much more technical explanation but this is my simplistic version. Here’s how I try to think about it: The mash is a ‘stew’ used to convert starch to sugar. My No 1 goal in the mash is pH and temperature control to aid conversion.

Note: I hot steep dark grains once the main mash conversion is complete. (Many confuse hot steep with cold steep which I do not do.)

Dark, roasted grains and malts—such as chocolate malt, black patent malt, and roasted barley—are kilned at high temp. The high temp destroys the enzymes and burns the starches. So, even if included in the mash they aren’t really being mashed—there is nothing left to convert. The burnt starches and husks can add an astringency plus — and this is the reason I hold them until Vorlauf — they screw with pH.

Crystal malts have been ‘stewed’ prior to kilning so they’ve already been mashed in their husks. The starches have been converted to sugar ‘crystals’.   So, they don’t need to be mashed either. …but the lighter colors probably wouldn’t hurt pH. I routinely hold all C-Malts back but anything over ~80° definitely gets held back.

However, ‘character malts’ like Amber, Brown, Victory, Melanoidin, Biscuit do need to be mashed.

Once conversion is complete and I am no longer concerned about pH, I increase to mash out temp and add dark grains for 30 min.

This way, every mash is the same: base malts plus character. It simplifies mash pH control.

Can I assume you are using built-up RO water?  Because with my moderately bicarbonated well-water, dark malts are a blessing for the mash.  And maybe because of this bicarbonate, I have never found that full-mashed dark malts added any undesirable astringency.  YMMV

Apologies to VT for the tangent...

[Village Taphouse]

No apology required.  All beer talk is good talk.