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Author Topic: opinion: lager yeasts/beers are less "clean" than the cleanest ale yeasts  (Read 2261 times)

Offline fredthecat

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disclaimer: just drank a hacker pschorr helles (of the many many litres i've drank of it over the years) and thoroughly enjoyed it and i will continue to use lager yeast

i know some people will disagree from their heart and from their tongue and likely even the lab, but.

when i drink a lager I know instantly if it is a lager yeast, whether it is adjunct or all malt. its that sensation of sulfur (SO2) no matter how light, the typical ester profile no matter how subtle.

comparatively, by my perception, the cleanest ale yeasts end up in a cool mesh of just malts and hops. simply, without less noticeable non-malt or hop flavours. im really noticing this in OYL006 (WLP007 equivalent), its just incredibly clean.

don't dislike lagers, but if im using a lager yeast I need to account for a somewhat muted hop aroma (compared to yeast) and the typical lager characteristics.


Offline denny

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Not my experience at all. Ever had an IPL?
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Offline erockrph

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I think that's a bit of an over-generalization. WY2278 Czech Pils gives a nice boost to hop flavor/aroma in my experience. That is my go-to when brewing a lager where I want more hop expression.

I can agree that lager yeasts aren't "flavorless". They all have their own flavor characteristics (however subtle they may be). Depending on your palate's sensitivity, I could see how a particular lager yeast may have more of an impact on flavor compared to a particular ale yeast in a particular recipe, but that's as far as I'll go with that.
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Offline dmtaylor

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I find this topic very interesting.  It really does depend a lot on the specific strains.

There are several ale strains that are extremely clean without perceptible esters.  And I know some of the ale strains with the most beautiful esters can come out squeaky clean when fermented cold like a lager.  Then there are also ale strains that make more esters when fermented cold than when fermented warm!  So much variation.

Meanwhile many of the very best lager strains IMO do in fact produce a few VERY interesting esters which often taste like grape (ethyl heptanoate) and/or stone fruit (cherry or almond -- probably another "-anoate"), even when fermented at chilly temperatures.  Without these esters, lagers would be far less interesting to me and to millions of people who love these esters -- lagers are missing something special indeed without them.

So much of what we know about ale vs. lager, and the different species which may or may not define them, have been blurred by recent genomic testing, such that it might never again be really fair to refer to a beer as an "ale" or a "lager".  We should give up on trying to categorize and generalize so many of these things.  Ultimately, maybe it really is all just "beer". 
Dave

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Offline ynotbrusum

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I've noticed that fermentation under pressure (say up to 10-12 psi) will subdue esters in both lager and ale strains...so for those looking to make clean ales, the pressure route has had good results for me.  I recently made an British Golden Ale that is very nearly lager-like (Crisp Golden Promise, a touch of acid malt, CaCl2 and lactic acid in the strike water to get a pH of about 5.4, and a touch of Munich malt; hops being magnum bittering and Hallertauer Mittelfruh 10 min - IBU to high 20 to 30's).

FWIW, and YMMV, of course.  Cheers.

Forgot to say - Lallemand London as the yeast.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 01:19:27 pm by ynotbrusum »
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Offline MDL

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I too find this topic interesting. I just brewed three lagers, helles style, each getting a different dry lager yeast(Diamond, CellarScience Berlin and CellarScience German). Similar grain bills and same pitch rate and fermentation temp of 50F

Diamond was the quickest reaching terminal in 6 days. German to about 7 days and Berlin almost 14 days.

Diamond and Berlin both 81% attenuation.
German 77% attenuation.

Diamond has the most SO2 followed by German then Berlin.

Diamond is the crispest/cleanest, followed by Berlin then German. German is the maltiest, almost toasty in character. Berlin has a very soft malt thing going on.

Berlin is the fruitiest but pleasantly esters.

All three compared to a high pitch and cool ferment of say 1056/wlp001 or bry97 have way more yeast character and malt character.

Offline ynotbrusum

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Metabolically speaking, the ale yeasts typically do not ferment maltotriose, so lagers tend to get more crisp from that further fermentation of the sugar.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Metabolically speaking, the ale yeasts typically do not ferment maltotriose, so lagers tend to get more crisp from that further fermentation of the sugar.

Partially true.  Generally speaking, pastorianus yeasts are better equipped to ferment maltotriose than cerevisiae.  However, again, there are plenty of exceptions.

On the pastorianus end, take a look at WLP810 and WLP820, which in my experience have fairly low attenuations averaging about 70% -- not great.  Several others only do kind of okay, mid 70s percentagewise but not in the 80s unless a complex or very long mash schedule is used.

Many or most commercially available ale strains actually DO ferment much or most of the maltotriose.  Very few struggle to ferment it in a major way -- these exceptions include but are not limited to, in no particular order:

Lallemand Windsor
Lallemand London
Fermentis S-33
Mangrove Jack M10 Workhorse
Mangrove Jack M15 Empire
Wyeast 1099 Whitbread
Edme Ale
Munton's Ale
White Labs WLP002 English

I would also expect many wild yeasts, wine yeasts, cider yeasts, mead yeasts, etc. to fall closer to the latter end of the scale.... but not necessarily.

And then on the other end, many commonly used yeasts such as US-05 and BRY-97 will attenuate into the 80+ percent range every time with ease, regardless of mash time or temperature.

So........ I still find it difficult to generalize such things.  I mean, you're kind of right..... but then there are just so very many exceptions.
Dave

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Offline Bel Air Brewing

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When it comes to choice in drinking, I will take any lager over any ale any day.

Offline pete b

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When it comes to choice in drinking, I will take any lager over any ale any day.
So you would take a Busch Light over an Old Rasputin?
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline fredthecat

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Not my experience at all. Ever had an IPL?

Yes, but a long time ago. I think you're referring to me saying "muted hop aroma"? Sure, i will explain more below

I think that's a bit of an over-generalization. WY2278 Czech Pils gives a nice boost to hop flavor/aroma in my experience. That is my go-to when brewing a lager where I want more hop expression.

I can agree that lager yeasts aren't "flavorless". They all have their own flavor characteristics (however subtle they may be). Depending on your palate's sensitivity, I could see how a particular lager yeast may have more of an impact on flavor compared to a particular ale yeast in a particular recipe, but that's as far as I'll go with that.

yes, you got me there. it was an inebriated observation, BUT yes, i might have wanted to specify which ones https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/interesting-genome-sequencing-of-some-yeasts.670056/#post-8701412 its more complicated than i can really get into or know, but yes you are very right.


I find this topic very interesting.  It really does depend a lot on the specific strains.

There are several ale strains that are extremely clean without perceptible esters.  And I know some of the ale strains with the most beautiful esters can come out squeaky clean when fermented cold like a lager.  Then there are also ale strains that make more esters when fermented cold than when fermented warm!  So much variation.

Meanwhile many of the very best lager strains IMO do in fact produce a few VERY interesting esters which often taste like grape (ethyl heptanoate) and/or stone fruit (cherry or almond -- probably another "-anoate"), even when fermented at chilly temperatures.  Without these esters, lagers would be far less interesting to me and to millions of people who love these esters -- lagers are missing something special indeed without them.

So much of what we know about ale vs. lager, and the different species which may or may not define them, have been blurred by recent genomic testing, such that it might never again be really fair to refer to a beer as an "ale" or a "lager".  We should give up on trying to categorize and generalize so many of these things.  Ultimately, maybe it really is all just "beer".

re the last part, yes. but i guess i meant the common german strains in the big pils/lager breweries and the trending homebrew lager yeasts these days (diamond etc) i and many are familiar with.


Meanwhile many of the very best lager strains IMO do in fact produce a few VERY interesting esters which often taste like grape (ethyl heptanoate) and/or stone fruit (cherry or almond -- probably another "-anoate"), even when fermented at chilly temperatures.  Without these esters, lagers would be far less interesting to me and to millions of people who love these esters -- lagers are missing something special indeed without them.

WLP051 i believe? i want to try that one sometime.

I've noticed that fermentation under pressure (say up to 10-12 psi) will subdue esters in both lager and ale strains...so for those looking to make clean ales, the pressure route has had good results for me.  I recently made an British Golden Ale that is very nearly lager-like (Crisp Golden Promise, a touch of acid malt, CaCl2 and lactic acid in the strike water to get a pH of about 5.4, and a touch of Munich malt; hops being magnum bittering and Hallertauer Mittelfruh 10 min - IBU to high 20 to 30's).


i cant ferment under pressure, but i intend to make a pseudo-lager soon with a similar grist and noble hops.


Offline Bel Air Brewing

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When it comes to choice in drinking, I will take any lager over any ale any day.
So you would take a Busch Light over an Old Rasputin?

It is very possible. On a hundred degree day in summer? You Bet! The point is ale is not my thing. Rarely brew them, and it is a very rare occasion for us to buy them.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 07:21:26 am by Bel Air Brewing »

Offline pete b

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When it comes to choice in drinking, I will take any lager over any ale any day.
So you would take a Busch Light over an Old Rasputin?

It is very possible. On a hundred degree day in summer? You Bet! The point is ale is not my thing. Rarely brew them, and it is a very rare occasion for us to buy them.
I am glad that I enjoy a wide variety of beers. And it's totally fine for someone to just like lagers. And point taken about a hot summer day but I would go with the OR in front of the fireplace in winter. Of course you are in TX and I am in Mass. I do think you are missing out on some good beer but settling on just sticking with favorites is a perfectly sane and happy making thing to do. Cheers!
Don't let the bastards cheer you up.

Offline Bel Air Brewing

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When it comes to choice in drinking, I will take any lager over any ale any day.
So you would take a Busch Light over an Old Rasputin?

It is very possible. On a hundred degree day in summer? You Bet! The point is ale is not my thing. Rarely brew them, and it is a very rare occasion for us to buy them.
I am glad that I enjoy a wide variety of beers. And it's totally fine for someone to just like lagers. And point taken about a hot summer day but I would go with the OR in front of the fireplace in winter. Of course you are in TX and I am in Mass. I do think you are missing out on some good beer but settling on just sticking with favorites is a perfectly sane and happy making thing to do. Cheers!

I guess my taste has evolved into being one sided. Many years ago, highly hopped ales were a staple for me.
My professional career had me spending so much time in other countries (Japan, Germany, Netherlands, etc.) that I quickly became very fond of their traditional lagers.

Our Barleywine that won a Gold is a good drinking beer. But it's place is better suited as an after dinner beer, or like you say, sitting around the fireplace on a cold snowy winter evening.