[denny]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

I use my house well water only for brewing.  It leans slightly hard.

I’ve tried a) adding salts and acid to the mash and b) acid only to the mash with salts in the boil.  I haven’t been able to tell a difference in the finished beer.  I’ve gone back to everything all at once as my water is heating up because it’s the easiest.

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

If your water is already hard ("minerally") then it maybe difficult to pick up flavors. Acid is a pH adjustment, and not used for flavoring. Lactic acid can leave an unpleasant "twang" behind if too much is used. Phosphoric acid contributes much less flavor since, during the mash, malt releases phosphates anyway.

Yes, acid (lactic) only in the mash for pH adjustment.

But I’m wondering if I added say gypsum or CaCl to the keg instead of on the hot side…maybe I’d notice their flavor contributions more.

By my understanding there is no difference

[goose]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

You need calcium in the mash to react with the Oxalic Acid released by the malt during mashing and precipitate it out as Calcium Oxalate. Also keep in mind that calcium minerals in the mash also help control pH so the enzymes can do their job effectively.

To echo Denny's comment, I don't think there would be a significant change, if any, in flavor by adding salts post boil.

[Megary]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

You need calcium in the mash to react with the Oxalic Acid released by the malt during mashing and precipitate it out as Calcium Oxalate. Also keep in mind that calcium minerals in the mash also help control pH so the enzymes can do their job effectively.

To echo Denny's comment, I don't think there would be a significant change, if any, in flavor by adding salts post boil.

Thanks. My house water has the required Ca for the mash, so my CaCl and Gypsum additions are simply for adjusting that Cl:SO4 ratio to where I want it.

I’ve never tried adding salts on the cold side and I don’t doubt that it makes no difference, which is why I keep it simple and add everything to the Mash.  I was just curious if anyone had tried it, other than for corrective purposes.

[mabrungard]

I’ve tried a) adding salts and acid to the mash and b) acid only to the mash with salts in the boil.  I haven’t been able to tell a difference in the finished beer.  I’ve gone back to everything all at once as my water is heating up because it’s the easiest.

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

There is a bit of disconnect between what we expect when we 'salt' our food and when we add salts to our brewing water. Many people expect and desire their food to have some sodium chloride 'saltiness', but most of the salts that we add to brewing water don't have a lot of flavor when added at the levels we typically employ. So its difficult to notice a real difference from salt additions by way of 'taste'.  It's more a difference in perception of beer within our mouth that actually changes. 

Sulfate and chloride are the main 'flavor' ions and they don't really have flavor. What they do have, is a marked effect on how our palate perceives flavor.  In the case of sulfate, it helps strip malt components off our taste receptors and contributes to a 'dryness' to the beer finish. That action helps us perceive bitterness and hop flavors more readily.  Conversely, chloride helps retain malt components on our taste receptors and that adds to mouthfeel and fullness and the perception of malt flavors. Its not until levels of sulfate and chloride are in the hundreds of ppm that the typical taster is going to notice a difference in taste and often that 'taste' is termed: 'minerally'.

With regard to adding salts post-boil, yes you can. In fact you can add many of them post-fermentation too. But there are definite advantages to adding some salts to the mashing water: reduction of mash pH, reduction of oxalate, and enhancement of mashing enzymes are the main benefits.  I can't see a reason not to add them to the mashing water. 

Now some brewers are concerned with making sure that their wort has plenty of calcium and they add calcium salts directly to the kettle. They are concerned with the documented fact that your post-mashing wort doesn't have the calcium content that was added to the pre-mash liquor. That calcium is tied up or precipitated in the mash tun through a variety of desirable chemical reactions. So the loss is inevitable.  But an important consideration is that malt provides ALL the calcium that the yeast need for proper fermentation. Brewing with only distilled water will still produce an acceptable beer and the yeast won't have a problem with fermentation. The main problem with brewing with little calcium content in your water is that yeast flocculation can be slower. If you're brewing an ale and expect that beer to clear in a timely manner, you'll want that calcium in there. But if you're lagering or filtering, then the need for calcium can become moot. But yeast health and fermentation is not the reason to add calcium.

With regard to the sulfate and chloride added to mashing water, I don't know of those ions getting tied up in the tun like calcium does. So that sulfate and chloride that you add to your mashing water should generally make it through into the kettle.

The bottom line is that there are several good reasons to add salts to your mashing water and few good reasons to delay them to the kettle or post-fermentation. 

[BrewBama]

I like to add CaCl to the mash to get at least 50 ppm Ca (but usually higher) then add gypsum to the kettle at desired ppm to get a malty, balanced, or bitter Sulfite/Chloride Ratio profile. I’ve noticed less beerstone white powdery buildup in the stainless fermenter when I do this vs adding all the salts to the MLT

[biertourist]

He uses three terms of soft, medium, and firm for “beer structure.”

What does he mean by beer structure? Mouth feel?

And what are the examples of beer that would be soft, medium, and firm?

Apologies for taking too long to reply to this thread. I have been putting together some presentations on brewing water for my club (part one for June, part two for July), and I had this exact same question about H2B v3's "beer structure" terminology.

I think your questions are mostly answered in a Live Steam that John Palmer did with Fools School 3 years ago. At 18:36 in the video he begins talking about what he called the "TDS Effect" on flavor aka "Mineral Structure".  He never gets into a concrete definition of the term, because I honestly do not think that it has one.

Palmer clarifies in the video and H2B v3 that "Mineral Structure" is focused on Total Dissolved Solids, not just the "hardness" (CA & MG) of the water source.  I think of it as roughly equivalent to salt levels in food and how restaurant food with loads of salt tastes more "tasty" and fulfilling than food you make at home with more reasonable and healthy salt levels, but Martin Brungard's post on here makes clear that salt in food and salt in beer do NOT have the same effect, so it's a flawed comparison.

I also think of some highly mineralized bottled water vs. say distilled or DI water, but not directly the same either.

In the video Palmer calls out the best comparisons as being:
1. Bohemian Pilsner (ultra low TDS)
2. German Pils (I believe he means North German examples, not Munich examples)
3. Dortmunder Export

All three beers can have very similar recipes and brewing processes but there are still different enough flavor differences that they're considered 3 distinct beer styles; "because STRUCTURE".

This link will take you directly there:
https://youtu.be/wto1J2azhFM?t=1116

Friday evening, I talked to John Palmer (although at about 1 hour into Homebrew Con "club night", so a big caveat statement there) about exactly this subject as I'm putting together my content for my club's 2nd water presentation, and I also wanted to make sure I understood "structure".

I explained my idea to just have the club do a parallel tasting of Pilsner Urquell, Jever or some other North German Pils, and DAB and then show the OG and ABV of each and just let the flavor difference stand on its own and "explain" the concept. (We just did regular Urquell, Urquell spiked with 125 ppm of Cacl and, Urquell spiked with 125 ppm of Gypsum last month to "taste" sulfite and chloride in June) --John agreed that's the best way for someone to grasp the concept.

It's a term, that AFAIK, is designed to describe the drinking experience; just drinking a very similar beer with different mineral content or adjusting fermented beer seems like the best way to understand the term vs. a definition.



The link above gives you a more detailed description of the term, but tasting the difference MIGHT be the best way to understand it. That's my answer today.


Adam

[biertourist]

Sulfate and chloride are the main 'flavor' ions and they don't really have flavor. What they do have, is a marked effect on how our palate perceives flavor.  In the case of sulfate, it helps strip malt components off our taste receptors and contributes to a 'dryness' to the beer finish. That action helps us perceive bitterness and hop flavors more readily.  Conversely, chloride helps retain malt components on our taste receptors and that adds to mouthfeel and fullness and the perception of malt flavors. Its not until levels of sulfate and chloride are in the hundreds of ppm that the typical taster is going to notice a difference in taste and often that 'taste' is termed: 'minerally'.
 

This paragraph is just fantastic!  Does anyone have a link or a reference to some material that "double clicks" into this subject in a little bit more detail on HOW this works?



Adam